who is responsible for the London attacks?

[OhioCitizen]

The difference between your approach and mine to the eyewitness testimony, is that you arbitrarily strip out and discard all of the accounts that are in conflict with your personal belief - a belief that is identical in just about all respects to the official narrative.

Bigfish: You've got that right. Within an hour of the Pentgon "crash", video tapes from two separate business locations [Citco gas station & a Sheraton Hotel] which clearly showed the crash site (and some surrounding airspace) were confiscated by the Feds. They continue to refuse to release those tapes. Seems like it would be simple enough. Or maybe they haven't gotten their digitally enhanced pre-release version back from Lucas Films yet?

Same thing happened in the OKC bombing except it was (I believe) six different tapes grabbed there which never have seen the light of day.

I don't believe that its necessary to swallow whole every "conspiracy theory" that comes along by the way. I just include the "official ones" in that statement too.

Unless, of course, you live in the universe where government officials never tamper with evidence of any kind to hide actions embarassing to themselves or their masters.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But this is the best


No, Rentoshite, your Leaders are supporting the 'enemy'. In fact, they are the enemy.

Where's freida when you need him?

You beat me to it!!!

 

[Dilzybhoy]

I dispute being the metal floor in question!!!
Liable, slander, outrage!!!

Did you do a search for "static"?

 

[editor]

Bigfish: You've got that right. Within an hour of the Pentgon "crash", video tapes from two separate business locations [Citco gas station & a Sheraton Hotel] which clearly showed the crash site (and some surrounding airspace) were confiscated by the Feds.

Where all the dozens of independent eye witnesses to the Pentagon crash administered those k3w1 drugs that they use in Star Trek so that no one could remember what they saw too?

 

[OhioCitizen]

Where all the dozens of independent eye witnesses to the Pentagon crash administered those k3w1 drugs that they use in Star Trek so that no one could remember what they saw too?

At the beginning of the debate raised by Meyssan Thierry's first book regarding the Pentagon incident on 911, much of the rebuttal focused on the testimony of witnesses who claimed that the saw a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon, and this was cited by French journalists as proof Meyssan's thesis was wrong. But then again, some witnesses claimed that the plane crashed on the lawn before it hit the Pentagon which is obviously not true based on the photographic evidence, and another claimed it caught a wingtip before crashing and cartwheeled into the Pentagon which is also obviously untrue.

In his second book, Meyssan also reviewed in-depth the statements from the various witnesses to the Pentagon crash. There is a wide a range of testimonials, some conflicting, some very interesting, that I will not repeat here. But he shows clear examples of how a story changes as it goes through the hands of different reporters, and how a witnesses' testimony has to be submitted to rigorous scrutiny to eliminate those that contain flagrant inconsistencies. He also notes the remarkable percentage of the witnesses who are themselves reporters, editors or associated with the mainstream press, and how their stories seem coincidentally to get wider coverage.

Testimonials are a tricky business. This is partly because you can't verify them: some of the testimonials that were widely reported were given by people who cannot be located now, and none of the testimonials were sworn statements under penalty of perjury (and/or treason)- after all, that's what an open and impartial inquiry should have been for. Bear in mind that the fact that there is any lack of consensus at all amongst the witness accounts is itself very significant. If a huge plane like a Boeing 757 flew across a crowded downtown freeway during morning rush hour at an altitude of 100 m. or less, you would expect a chorus of accounts that differed only in minor details.

Its known through studies of the human brain that your visual inputs are processed by other parts of the brain before it reaches the vision centers (see Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot) Some 50% of what we "see" is pre-interpreted beforehand. (An example of this is when you shave off a mustache or put colored lenses in your eyes and nobody notices for hours, days or weeks. And the insurance industries are well aware that 4 witnesses to a car crash can have 4 different versions of what they saw, some radically different from the others.) This is why many people concentrate on the inconsistencies of the physical evidence at the site of the "crash" rather than various eyewitness accounts.

But don't let that stop you from taking potshots at the "tinfoil hat" brigade.

 

[fela fan]

...

If a huge plane like a Boeing 757 flew across a crowded downtown freeway during morning rush hour at an altitude of 100 m. or less, you would expect a chorus of accounts that differed only in minor details.

Its known through studies of the human brain that your visual inputs are processed by other parts of the brain before it reaches the vision centers (see Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot) Some 50% of what we "see" is pre-interpreted beforehand. (An example of this is when you shave off a mustache or put colored lenses in your eyes and nobody notices for hours, days or weeks. And the insurance industries are well aware that 4 witnesses to a car crash can have 4 different versions of what they saw, some radically different from the others.) This is why many people concentrate on the inconsistencies of the physical evidence at the site of the "crash" rather than various eyewitness accounts.

But don't let that stop you from taking potshots at the "tinfoil hat" brigade.

Quite, the witnesses might be expected to agree on the major theme as you outline mate. The fact that different people saw different things and heard different things explains that there were different things going on.

If eyewitness testimony is taken to be credible that is.

 

[editor]

But don't let that stop you from taking potshots at the "tinfoil hat" brigade.

I'm just trying to establish how bigfish can construct an enormous conspiracy - involving the tacit involvement of all the emergency services, the police, fireman, forensics, accident investigators, ambulancemen, tube workers, tube maintenance staff, permanent way staff etc etc - based on a single comment from one dazed eye witness leaving a smoking train while he repeatedly dismisses dozens of other eye witnesses elsewhere on the grounds that they, err, don't support his bonkers theory.

 

[kyser_soze]

OK, so despite the fact that the UK is in Iraq and that there are terrorist cells and groups out there in the bad ole world that have said on a number of occassions that they will attack the UK for a variety of reasons, it's still down to the govt to involve 000s of people in a conspiracy to kill it's own citizens to what end?

If Blair wants to bring in ID cards he'd have been able to do it - believe it or not outside the U75 political bubble where opposing what the govt does is a given, even before the attacks there was support for ID cards - how strongly that support was expressed depended very much on how the question was couched in the interview for the opinion poll. Ole Joe Public out there wasn't averse to the idea.

Because of the way UK govt works if Blair wanted to bring in ULTRA repressive legislation - curfew, manadatory break up of gatherings over a certan size, restrictions on movement, speech - as opposed to an updated variant of Maggies prevention of terrorism act (hell, OBL doesn't have to have his voice altered the way the IRA did) he wouldn't need to provide an event like this - he could just activate the Emergency Powers Act and have done with it.

Of course, that none of these things has happened, and given that despite what some posters here seem to think, there is actually a credible threat to the UK from non-governmental or state organisations.

As it's CONSTANTLY pointed out here, esp by Fela, UK is a BIG EVIL and therefore doesn't it make sense that it's a target? So why, given all this, does it have to be MI5 and the CIA blowing people up?

 

[TeeJay]

I'm just trying to establish how bigfish can construct an enormous conspiracy - involving the tacit involvement of all the emergency services, the police, fireman, forensics, accident investigators, ambulancemen, tube workers, tube maintenance staff, permanent way staff etc etc - based on a single comment from one dazed eye witness leaving a smoking train while he repeatedly dismisses dozens of other eye witnesses elsewhere on the grounds that they, err, don't support his bonkers theory.

"They also have a tendency to jump to conclusions, and to be hasty and overconfident in their thinking. They will seek out information that confirms their beliefs and, at the same time, ignore evidence that contradicts them. Their view of the world tends to be very narrow and to neglect the broader context. So, they very easily get ‘the wrong end of the stick’, and focus on small details rather than the big picture. These thinking errors are known as cognitive biases. They can interfere with social relationships and also lead the person to think in a strange way - causing further social difficulties, and creating a vicious circle."

Editor, I'll let you guess which website I got this from...

edit:

"A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g. it is not an article of religious faith)."

 

[OhioCitizen]

As it's CONSTANTLY pointed out here, esp by Fela, UK is a BIG EVIL and therefore doesn't it make sense that it's a target? So why, given all this, does it have to be MI5 and the CIA blowing people up?

It doesn't have to be M15 or the CIA blowing up things.

All it would have to be, considering the amount of funds, contacts and intelligence information available to these organizations, is a failure to prevent an action by an outside group beforehand.

Which would explain why some people are warned in advance while others are not.

 

[editor]

Which would explain why some people are warned in advance while others are not.

So who was "warned in advance" before the last two waves of London bombings? (credible evidence requested)

 

[Donna Ferentes]

So who was "warned in advance" before the last two waves of London bombings? (credible evidence requested)

This isn't going to turn out to be the Jews or something, is it?

 

[nino_savatte]

This isn't going to turn out to be the Jews or something, is it?

No, it's the shape-shifting lizards.

 

[phildwyer]

This isn't going to turn out to be the Jews or something, is it?

No: the *gay* Jews!

 

[OhioCitizen]

So who was "warned in advance" before the last two waves of London bombings? (credible evidence requested)

Well, there was an analysis done by Statfor Intelligence group http://www.stratfor.com/ which said in part:

Analysis

The Associated Press reported July 7 that an anonymous source in the Israeli Foreign Ministry said Scotland Yard had warned the Israeli Embassy in London of possible terrorist attacks in the U.K. capital. The information reportedly was passed to the embassy minutes before the first bomb struck at 0851 London time. The Israeli Embassy promptly ordered Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to remain in his hotel on the morning of July 7. Netanyahu was scheduled to participate in an Israeli Investment Forum Conference at the Grand Eastern Hotel, located next to the Liverpool Street Tube station -- the first target in the series of bombings that hit London on July 7.

And while advance knowledge was denied almost immediately thereafter, the following was reported in the Israel Insider:

Mossad tells Brits: Same explosives likely used in Tel Aviv and London blasts
By Israel Insider staff and partners July 11, 2005

(Cut for brevity...)

The Mossad office in London received advance notice about the attacks, but only six minutes before the first blast, the paper reports, confirming an earlier AP report. As a result, it was impossible to take any action to prevent the blasts.

"They reached us too late for us to do something about it," a Mossad source is quoted as saying.

The aforementioned was based upon statements made by Mossad chief Meir Dagan, in an interview with the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag:

“The Mossad office in London received advance notice about the attacks, but only six minutes before the first blast, the paper reports, confirming an earlier AP report. As a result, it was impossible to take any action to prevent the blasts.”

Even with so little warning, Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu remained in his hotel room rather than making his way to the hotel adjacent to the site of the first explosion, a Liverpool Street train station, where he was to address an economic summit.

You know, little things. Here and there.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

That rumour's been pretty comprehensively trashed. There's no evidence of it being the case and the movements of Netanyahu indicate that he moved *after* the first explosion. That's not an indication of pre-warning, that just means the security services informed him before they informed the public (which is what you'd expect really, they care about foreign dignitaries more than they care about us).

 

[exosculate]

That rumour's been pretty comprehensively trashed. There's no evidence of it being the case and the movements of Netanyahu indicate that he moved *after* the first explosion. That's not an indication of pre-warning, that just means the security services informed him before they informed the public (which is what you'd expect really, they care about foreign dignitaries more than they care about us).

Indeed

 

[krtek a houby]

So who was "warned in advance" before the last two waves of London bombings? (credible evidence requested)

I don't believe anyone was warned. I think that's the usual conspiracy shite.

Personallly, like.

 

[editor]

You know, little things. Here and there.

Yes. And all shit that was subsequently proved to be utter bollocks.

You'll find the sources rubbishing your fantasy in a thread residing in the bin.

 

[sparticus]

So why, given all this, does it have to be MI5 and the CIA blowing people up?

It doesn't HAVE to be either MI5 or CIA blowing people up but given their respect track records it is a reasonable suspicion to hold. Just as it is reasonable to consider CIA involvement in 9/11.

You then look at the evidence

To date it is way too early to reach any conclusions re 7/7

That shouldn't stop people asking questions or challenging the official line.

Given the history of 'terrorism', only the naive or dishonest would discount the possibility of state sponsorship

 

[laptop]

I'm just trying to establish how bigfish can construct an enormous conspiracy - involving the tacit involvement of all the emergency services, the police, fireman, forensics, accident investigators, ambulancemen, tube workers, tube maintenance staff, permanent way staff etc etc - based on a single comment from one dazed eye witness leaving a smoking train while he repeatedly dismisses dozens of other eye witnesses elsewhere on the grounds that they, err, don't support his bonkers theory.

Aaaand... here's a photo of the floor of a Circle Line train, from ABC news (the US channel, not the Australian). I'd say that was pretty conclusively blown downward, wouldn't you?

(Link not inline, because there's a little blood.)

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/popup?id=979901&content=&page=3

* Awaits hastily rewritten conspiranoid "theory" *

 

[gurrier]

* Awaits hastily rewritten conspiranoid "theory" *

Thanks, I will. A guy on a website who doesn't understand the first thing about digital photography has *proved* that this photo is a forgery, most likely created in an underground mossad bunker in downing street. Although his only training is in selling shoes, he has managed to come up with irrefutable *mathematical proofs* involving some very difficult looking sums and lots of scientific sounding words that I don't understand. If there *really were* a bomb in that place, the floor would not have such smooth undulations. You see, the melting point of the tin-nickel alloy used in tube flooring is much higher temperature than a bomb can produce and the metal would shatter rather than melt in such a way. The only known substance that could produce that pattern is the highly secret chemical weapon that the illuminati have been mixing into airline fuel to placate the population.

The blue thing in the background is a prototype CIA underground wireless high frequency messaging device which is communicating with a sattelite from 2km underground by the way.

 

[fela fan]

As it's CONSTANTLY pointed out here, esp by Fela, UK is a BIG EVIL and therefore doesn't it make sense that it's a target? So why, given all this, does it have to be MI5 and the CIA blowing people up?

CONSTANTLY? Funny man, i've not even once pointed that out, never mind CONSTANTLY. How the fuck did you reach that conclusion? Faulty understanding of the highest order. Makes me wonder about the rest of what you write.

I certainly recognise the human rights abuses that this british government is guilty of.

I certainly recognise the complaints i hear from my compatriots about the state of the country these days, and now it's a battle-ground for opposing ideologies, with the innocent people the ones getting lay-wasted.

Nah, the UK is not one big evil (whatever that actually means), but it sure dishes out some shit to people. It's leaders should be locked up.

I hope that clears things up in your confused mind kyser.

 

[fela fan]

Given the history of 'terrorism', only the naive or dishonest would discount the possibility of state sponsorship

Indeed. The only question is to what extent it has to be covered up. For example here in thailand, on at least two occasions, a decade apart, i've seen the state blatantly create a pretext, then immediately going in with guns blazing killing hundreds, then saying to the public, look they were attacking us, we had to kill them. Due to state propaganda, many people just respond by saying they were bad people, they deserved to die.

The CIA of course have plenty of blood on their hands, they just have to hide things a bit more.

And anyway, the state is always at least indirectly sponsoring terrorism through its own terror policies.

 

[laptop]

Thanks!

the highly secret chemical weapon that the illuminati have been mixing into airline fuel to placate the population.

I read that as "anime fuel". Which would hardly placate, would it?

* Doesn't look at photo *

Are you sure the device isn't the remains of the Scientologists' E-meter?

* Sleeps *

 

[gurrier]

Are you sure the device isn't the remains of the Scientologists' E-meter?

The e-meter was an early prototype of the device. To explain, I'll have to give a bit of background, It's an interesting tale of intrigue, double cross and cunning.

The highly scientific scientologists are way ahead of the rest of us when it comes to neuro-science. They discovered decades ago that our individual thoughts actually have mass and a distinct shape, and are like little slides rushing around in our heads. The key to a worthwhile existance is to order all of these tiny little fellows into the proper patterns, to rid ourselves of our reactive mind so that we can become pure thetans.[*]

All the while, the scientologists noble mission to free us from our reactive minds, has in fact been infiltrated by agents of an evil alien race, who are about 5'10" high on average and amazingly ordinary looking, except for their propensity to wear little black caps to cover their reptilian scaled skulls and their habit of living in Palestine[**]. The evil aliens, lets call them jooz, secretly passed their terrible technology to the scientologists - quite unbeknownst to them - several decades ago and have been using the scientologists free personality tests as a means of beaming information back to their mothership and generally gathering intelligence with which to enslave us. Meanwhile, their agents have taken control of the international finance networks which they are using to hide the truth from brave truth-seekers such as myself.

9-11 was just a little trial run to see how the emergency services will cope with the final take-over. However, word on the street is that Tom Cruise has rumbled the plan and could yet save the day, sort of like that film that is out at the moment - just a coincidence??? I doubt it.....

[*] This really is what scientologists claim to believe. The 'reactive mind' is coincidentally the same piece of the mind that might say: "what a crock of shit you loonie-tune shysters".

[**] any resemblance to ethnic groups living or dead is purely coincidental - I'm talking about Aliens goddamit.

 

[editor]

The blue thing in the background is a prototype CIA underground wireless high frequency messaging device which is communicating with a sattelite from 2km underground by the way.

Course it is!

Bit lax of them to leave it there though, no?

Must be hard asking all the transport staff, tube workers, accident investigators, police, forensics staff etc etc not to mention it though...maybe a lizardy Paul McKenna hypnotised them all afterwards.

 

[editor]

I certainly recognise the complaints i hear from my compatriots about the state of the country these days, and now it's a battle-ground for opposing ideologies, with the innocent people the ones getting lay-wasted.

That'll be from people partying on holiday and ex-pats, yes?

Well, there's an impeccable source. No need to listen to the people who actually live here then when you can listen to a pissed up holidaymaker, eh?

 

[Barking_Mad]

hmmm ive seen his thread somewhere before.....

 

[kyser_soze]

CONSTANTLY? Funny man, i've not even once pointed that out, never mind CONSTANTLY. How the fuck did you reach that conclusion? Faulty understanding of the highest order. Makes me wonder about the rest of what you write.

Don't talk bollox fela, you're always banging on about how USUK are the greatest danger to the planet, worse than the Chinese and every other oppressive regime in the world etc. Or are many of the things you've said on this topic subject to Fela's change-of-meaning rule?

And then when something like 7/7 happens you don't think 'Well that was to be expected given what the UK is doing in the rest of the world' it's 'Oh, it must be the govt or state that's responsible for this'