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who is responsible for the London attacks?

Bernie Gunther said:
It seems to me that the purpose of the "Londonistan" meme that the US right-wing echo-chamber is now pushing for all they're worth is distraction.
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Plus, it legitimises the idea of a hermetically-sealed Amerika, into which oil but not contaminating alien people may percolate, and within which bonkers fundamentalist memes may flourish undisturbed by the real world.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
It seems to me that the purpose of the "Londonistan" meme that the US right-wing echo-chamber is now pushing for all they're worth is distraction. Distraction from their policy failures in Iraq and now on the streets of London.

Story after story is appearing over the Atlantic saying in effect "this is all the fault of the pansy-ass liberal Brits for being so multi-cultural and tolerant"

Here is a typical example Tough French, Weak Brits
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Agree with the post, and that article...God, I've read some poorly written, badly researched pieces in my time but that's something else!!

Especially amused by the section talking about the sharing of CT Intel ignoring the long standing arrangement between MI6 and the CIA since about 1950's to share intel...

You've got to love the fantastic doublethink in this article alone. First off this guy would have been in the cheese eating surrender monkeys camp and he's also praising the dirigiste model of a super string central state for it's ability to dictate laws such as the headscarf ban (and ignoring the fact that it has as much to do with religious symbolism in secular state schools etc as it does with picking on Muslims)

Will be quite handy if it does go this way tho - could push Blair closer to EU, hasten the departure of troops etc.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
...Story after story is appearing over the Atlantic saying in effect "this is all the fault of the pansy-ass liberal Brits for being so multi-cultural and tolerant" ...[/URL]
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There are a few aspects to this and it's not a pretty spectacle.

1. Eurabia

Hacks like Coulter have been saying for a couple of years that Europe is overrun with towel draped Satan worshiping Muslims bent on conquest and the degenerate French are just too weak to tackle the dusky hoard.

2. The reality of very close French-American cooperation on terrorism.

This is coming out from even the Rightwing US security think tanks for six months or so. The Terrorism savvy French may have opposed the Iraq war but are looking like a far better ally in the covert side than the experienced but institutionally very officious Brits. As the terrorist threat is worsens the covert war gets more vital to the cause.

3. Why did London get hit? It couldn't happen here could it???

The US security community has a very high opinion of MI5's expertise, can't be that. It can't be connected with Iraq of course. It must be all those Aaarabs they've let in. America would never do that so we're safe there is no need to run to the hills.
 
Bomber died in bus explosion according to the BBC ticker, and it seems pretty likely he's been traced to the houses in Leeds:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4674463.stm

So, although I am sure this will make no odds to conspiracy theorists, that only adds to the increasingly tenuous narratives being employed by some here.
 
Well that's good news.

Question now is are these lily whites just delivery boys?

They've been saying the bombs were looking proffessional not a simple DIY construction and with commercial/millitary explosive there is some speculation that there might be a more professional quarter master figure still at large.

If the bomb teams are dead that would leave almost no trail to follow.
 
oi2002 said:
If the bomb teams are dead that would leave almost no trail to follow.
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Looks like they are all dead.

Also looks like they have alot of information too.

Hope this isn't a Barry Bulsara investigation though.
 
oi2002 said:
with commercial/millitary explosive
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"Explosive expert" just on News24 saying the police operaition in Leeds looked to him like dealing with a possible explosive manufacture operation.

Ban A-level chemistry now!

(Just thought I'd get that in ahead of tomorrow's Daily Express)
 
layabout said:
Please can you stop going around talking of "right wing lunatics"

It's just as counter productive as "muslim lunatics" or "left wing lunatics" - it will create bad blood and the right wingers on this board, will ignore any good points you have to make and start pulling your hair.

You're third the third person I've asked within the space of a week to stop doing it.

Hating people because they are who they are, is a problem that can afflict ANYONE no matter where their general political asperiations lie.

Cheers.
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surely, if a given poster believes a certain set of views are tantamount to lunacy, it is the very epitome of free speech, that he should feel free to describe those views and their holders as such?
 
So, although I am sure this will make no odds to conspiracy theorists, that only adds to the increasingly tenuous narratives being employed by some here.
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It's actually impossible to disprove them. Any evidence you can present is regarded as false. What I don't get, is if the 'powers that be' have the ability to control life as much as the consiparcy theorists think, then what hope is there of uncovering the 'truth'? It would be impossible, because dark shadowy figures who answer to Dick Cheney's cat will always intervene.
 
Jo/Joe said:
It's actually impossible to disprove them.
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"Conspiracy theories" are the rhinoceros in the corner of Bertrand Russell's study. Russell knows it's not there, well enough: Wittgenstein keeps pointing out that you can't prove a negative.

Actual conspiracies are the mice under the floorboards. By diligently following their little trail of tedious shit shall you know them.
 
If it was a group of local-born bombers, who all died doing it, and they did have professional assistance, then this is going to become extremely ripe for conspiracy theory if the "professional help" isn't rapidly apprehended as well.

That's a classic set-up for all kinds of "false flag" theories, some of which may actually turn out to be plausible for all we know at this stage. It would actually be quite comforting to find they were all chemical engineering students and that the house in Leeds was a home-brew bomb factory.
 
laptop said:
"Conspiracy theories" are the rhinoceros in the corner of Bertrand Russell's study. Russell knows it's not there, well enough: Wittgenstein keeps pointing out that you can't prove a negative.

Actual conspiracies are the mice under the floorboards. By diligently following their little trail of tedious shit shall you know them.
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Some Rhinos do exist though.
 
exosculate said:
Some Rhinos do exist though.
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But not (to good-enough near-as-an-empiricist-gets-to-certainty) in Bertie's study. And it's the location that counts: after all, an ante-natal class is a breathing-together (con-spiro).

Back to the subject: it isn't even necessarily degree-level stuff.

Why, I remember, bored at the back of A-level chemistry class... er...

that was boring, so then we designed a good-looking mescaline synthesis. And burned the notes, ossifer.
 
If this is a bunch of pissed-off young muslims from Leeds, given the racial tensions being stirred up around there by the BNP over the years, you have to wonder what got them this pissed off.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
If this is a bunch of pissed-off young muslims from Leeds, given the racial tensions being stirred up around there by the BNP over the years, you have to wonder what got them this pissed off.
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Once again, obviously someone else is to blame.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Once again, obviously someone else is to blame.
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Boring argument JC, been done. I think things can have more than one cause and that causal effects can interact. You apparently don't.

I think we already established this long ago. Why waste further energy.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Boring argument JC, been done. I think things can have more than one cause and that causal effects can interact. You apparently don't.

I think we already established this long ago. Why waste further energy.
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We can take it as a given that they were unhappy with britain for some reason.

But imo it takes more than discontent to turn someone into a suicide bomber.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
We can take it as a given that they were unhappy with britain for some reason.

But imo it takes more than discontent to turn someone into a suicide bomber.
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And it takes more than just being a 'bad person' who wants to kill people to get four of them to decide to do it in unison.

Looking for causes and reasons beyond the fingers on the buttons is not the same as absolving the bombers of their blame and anyone who repeats this lie on this thread is a shit stirring arsehole.
 
maomao said:
And it takes more than just being a 'bad person' who wants to kill people to get four of them to decide to do it in unison.

Looking for causes and reasons beyond the fingers on the buttons is not the same as absolving the bombers of their blame and anyone who repeats this lie on this thread is a shit stirring arsehole.
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.............................. etc etc
 
Point is if you asked people for the top five racial tension hotspots in the UK, the places where the BNP and similar outfits have been trying to stir up race wars for years, the places where these guys are from would I'm reasonably sure, be pretty high on the list. I used to live up in Yorkshire a couple of decades ago, but it's my impression that is still true. Therefore if we want to understand what caused a bunch of humans to get blown to fuck last week, and maybe stop it happening again, I think we need to recognise that an environment of extreme racial tension may have a role in the causal chain.

I think it's also pretty clear that any people who have been working for decades to create that tension, explicitly aiming at starting a race war to fuel their sordid little hitler jerk-off fantasies, bear a share of the blame.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Point is if you asked people for the top five racial tension hotspots in the UK, the places where the BNP and similar outfits have been trying to stir up race wars for years, the places where these guys are from would I'm reasonably sure, be pretty high on the list. I used to live up in Yorkshire a couple of decades ago, but it's my impression that is still true. Therefore if we want to understand what caused a bunch of humans to get blown to fuck last week, and maybe stop it happening again, I think we need to recognise that an environment of extreme racial tension may have a role in the causal chain.

I think it's also pretty clear that any people who have been working for decades to create that tension, explicitly aiming at starting a race war to fuel their sordid little hitler jerk-off fantasies, bear a share of the blame.
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You're probably right, but can you really separate the BNP from the overriding culture that fomented it and allowed it to exist?
 
Bernie Gunther said:
If it was a group of local-born bombers, who all died doing it, and they did have professional assistance, then this is going to become extremely ripe for conspiracy theory if the "professional help" isn't rapidly apprehended as well.

That's a classic set-up for all kinds of "false flag" theories, some of which may actually turn out to be plausible for all we know at this stage. It would actually be quite comforting to find they were all chemical engineering students and that the house in Leeds was a home-brew bomb factory.
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It's ripening like a grape in the Sahara. Already we are seeing a new use for the idea 'suicide' bomber. Previously, the 'suicide' was necessary because there was no other way of getting the bomb to explode where you wanted it to and getting yourself away.

Yet why was this the case with the London bombs?
 
You can't separate anything, what everyone does is make judgment calls about which are the most important factors.
 
DrJazzz said:
It's ripening like a grape in the Sahara. Already we are seeing a new use for the idea 'suicide' bomber. Previously, the 'suicide' was necessary because there was no other way of getting the bomb to explode where you wanted it to and getting yourself away.

Yet why was this the case with the London bombs?
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If these were genuine suicide bombers, that's a good point. This appears to be largely symbolic (although apparently suicide bombs kill more people as they are higher up, confusing as all early reports said the tube bombs were on the floor).
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
While brits have always delighted in calling americans down for their racism, it's seemed to me that there is a virulent racism alive and well in UK that wouldn't find such overt expression in the US or Canada for that matter.
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Far more covert expression though - how sinister.
 
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