White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[Athos]

You wouldn't need to deny your parentage were if you just felt black. You'd just proclaim your racial identity in spite of everything. That's what I think. there are enough white people out there claiming a black heritage and even taking advantage of such an identity for self-serving purposes (Iggy Azalea, etc) without going through the whole rigmarole of inventing a black dad, etc.

No, because nobody lives in a vacuum. Race (like gender) is socially constructed, both on the macro scale, and the micro i.e. in the individual case, through interaction with those around us. It's on a par to a transexual having no childhood photos of them in the 'other' body, and denying when asked if they were raised in another gender (which they have the right to do, of course).

 

[MochaSoul]

No, but there is something inconsistent about the way that some people are considered con artists by choosing to alter one aspect of their socially constructed identity whereas others aren't.

Members of her family are challenging her very identity, saying she has misrepresented major portions of her life.

Dolezal’s mother, Ruthanne Dolezal, said Thursday by phone from her home in northwestern Montana that she has had no contact with her daughter in years. She said her daughter began to “disguise herself” in 2006 or 2007, after the family had adopted four African-American children and Rachel Dolezal had shown an interest in portrait art.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/jun/12/naacp-presidents-claims-about-background-disputed/

People who dispute their birth assigned gender usually feel "wronged" from a much earlier age than 25.

 

[Pickman's model]

Athos i would have thought the simple facts of who combined their sperm and egg to give one life are not sociallyconstructed.

 

[butchersapron]

Africans and all that eh? Fucking hell.

 

[MochaSoul]

No, because nobody lives in a vacuum. Race (like gender) is socially constructed, both on the macro scale, and the micro i.e. in the individual case, through interaction with those around us. It's on a par to a transexual having no childhood photos of them in the 'other' body, and denying when asked if they were raised in another gender (which they have the right to do, of course).

Hang on a minute! Don't even go there. Speaking as the black person that grew up within a white community (like Dolezal did as the white person she is), what is hard about being black is the slow awareness from the way people treat you that something is "different", "not quite right" or "inherently wrong" about you that you can't put your finger on but is undeniably there. It's the other kids at school beat you up outside school, not getting invited to birthday parties, constantly having people touch your hair as if you were a dog or a sheep and resent the fact you don't like it, your mother constantly pointing out that "You need to deserve 20 for your teacher to give you an 18" and bemoaning the fact that black people are always athletes, clowns or criminals. It's not about what you are or who you recognise within yourself; it's what society deems you to be by reason of your being black. But there you are in middle of all of that while waking up every day feeling your own self only to go out there and be relentlessly reminded that your person is not quite "person" it's "black person". That is not what Dolezal has grew up with. It's simply what she "claims" to have for the sake of a career which doubly disregards the very people she purports to represent.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[frogwoman]

Surely the difference with transgender people is that society in general punishes people who behave in ways associated with the opposite sex eg boys who like pink and wear dresses. Whereas there are loads of examples of white people adopting stereotypes of other races eg listening hip hop music etc and not really suffering any negative consequences over it.

 

[Celyn]

If she had just said that, whether or not anyone thought it odd, she did feel black, perceive herself as black etc., there wouldn't be such a debate about her really.

However, telling direct lies about who her father is, about her 'son' being her brother, about living in the tipi, about being punished by 'baboon whips' when living in S. Africa etc., all point to a very dishonest person.

 

[Citizen66]

Music is an interesting one as you got white people legitimising black music for white audiences such as Elvis and The Rolling Stones.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Hang on a minute! Don't even go there. Speaking as the black person that grew up within a white community (like Dolezal did as the white person she is), what is hard about being black is the slow awareness from the way people treat you that something is "different", "not quite right" or "inherently wrong" about you that you can't put your finger on but is undeniably there. It's the other kids at school beat you up outside school, not getting invited to birthday parties, constantly having people touch your hair as if you were a dog or a sheep and resent the fact you don't like it, your mother constantly pointing out that "You need to deserve 20 for your teacher to give you an 18" and bemoaning the fact that black people are always athletes, clowns or criminals. It's not about what you are or who you recognise within yourself; it's what society deems you to be by reason of your being black. But there you are in middle of all of that while waking up every day feeling your own self only to go out there and be relentlessly reminded that your person is not quite "person" it's "black person". That is not what Dolezal has grew up with. It's simply what she "claims" to have for the sake of a career which doubly disregards the very people she purports to represent.

I do hope, though, that you are middle-aged, and that what you're talking about is the experience of being a black person growing up in the 70s and 80s, and that black and mixed-race kids growing up today have it rather better. I'm not in denial that racism exists, but surely it's rarer and less undeniably there in schools and among schoolkids these days? Perfectly prepared for anyone with black kids to tell me I'm talking bollocks - just hoping that this is the case.

 

[Wilf]

Athos, as always we don't know her true motivations, but it looks like this might have its origins in her family disputes. We do know she has done extraordinary things in terms of invented fathers and redefining brothers as sons. If the evidence is as reported she's also produced images of lynchings and pretended to send them to herself. And what appears as a constant in all this is the building of a career, academic and political. The whole thing will have psychological origins, but it has been about gain in practice. I doubt that's what is going on for most trans people and your contributions do seem like a bit of afters from the other thread.

 

[frogwoman]

I would like to think thats the case, but it wouldn't surprise me if it wasnt. Antisemitism and sexism have both increased the last couple years, and i do think society is becoming worryingly more segregated and intolerant

 

[Athos]

when you say she lives accordingly do you mean many black women - or indeed many people of either sex and any hue - would lie about their parentage to the extent of getting someone to pretend to be their dad to fit in?

I did think of that, but I'm not convinced that's it's a sufficient explanation, because I'd still feel uncomfortable with what she'd done, notwithstanding the absence of explicit lies.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

I would like to think thats the case, but it wouldn't surprise me if it wasnt. Antisemitism and sexism have both increased the last couple years, and i do think society is becoming worryingly more segregated and intolerant

Antisemitism is a special case, though. It is increasing because of anti-Israel agendas.

I'm not sure I agree with you about sexism or about intolerance in general. Intolerance towards the poor is growing, perhaps; a quantity theory of intolerance, though, would suggest that if one group is demonised, it's good for those groups which were previously discriminated against. And that's just as likely to hold as a theory that intolerance of one kind permits other intolerances to grow.

 

[Duncan2]

I do hope, though, that you are middle-aged, and that what you're talking about is the experience of being a black person growing up in the 70s and 80s, and that black and mixed-race kids growing up today have it rather better. I'm not in denial that racism exists, but surely it's rarer and less undeniably there in schools and among schoolkids these days? Perfectly prepared for anyone with black kids to tell me I'm talking bollocks - just hoping that this is the case.

sorry maurice its bollocks.Can't go into it though.

 

[Athos]

Hang on a minute! Don't even go there. Speaking as the black person that grew up within a white community (like Dolezal did as the white person she is), what is hard about being black is the slow awareness from the way people treat you that something is "different", "not quite right" or "inherently wrong" about you that you can't put your finger on but is undeniably there. It's the other kids at school beat you up outside school, not getting invited to birthday parties, constantly having people touch your hair as if you were a dog or a sheep and resent the fact you don't like it, your mother constantly pointing out that "You need to deserve 20 for your teacher to give you an 18" and bemoaning the fact that black people are always athletes, clowns or criminals. It's not about what you are or who you recognise within yourself; it's what society deems you to be by reason of your being black. But there you are in middle of all of that while waking up every day feeling your own self only to go out there and be relentlessly reminded that your person is not quite "person" it's "black person". That is not what Dolezal has grew up with. It's simply what she "claims" to have for the sake of a career which doubly disregards the very people she purports to represent.

I agree, our sense of ourselves is party based on other's perception of race - both ours, and more generally. But what's the logical distinction between that and a sense of self based on gender?

 

[Wilf]

I did think of that, but I'm not convinced that's it's a sufficient explanation, because I'd still feel uncomfortable with what she'd done, notwithstanding the absence of explicit lies.

Not sure if I'm reading this right, are you saying she didn't explicitly lie (genuine q)?

 

[Athos]

Surely the difference with transgender people is that society in general punishes people who behave in ways associated with the opposite sex eg boys who like pink and wear dresses. Whereas there are loads of examples of white people adopting stereotypes of other races eg listening hip hop music etc and not really suffering any negative consequences over it.

Not convinced. Black people who 'act white' are often criticised as sell-outs by some other black people, and white people who like stereotypical black culture are often ridiculed e.g. 'wiggers'.

 

[butchersapron]

Antisemitism is a special case, though. It is increasing because of anti-Israel agendas.

I'm not sure I agree with you about sexism or about intolerance in general. Intolerance towards the poor is growing, perhaps; a quantity theory of intolerance, though, would suggest that if one group is demonised, it's good for those groups which were previously discriminated against. And that's just as likely to hold as a theory that intolerance of one kind permits other intolerances to grow.

What an odd post.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep Wilf most trans people come out after a very long and painful struggle. I am pretty gender critical myself and totally disagree with the view of gender of most 'trans activists' but a lot of the trans women i know have spent years trying to come to terms with dysphoria in a society that is completely obsessed with gender roles. We can debate the causes, i think it has a fairly large social component to it but i don't think most trans people are setting out to start a career in feminism and/or pretending to represent the opposite sex, at all. The fact that the suicide rate among trans people is so high shows its mostly not an attention seeking careerist move at all. Of course there are some who do this but there are people who fabricate all sorts of other aspects of their lives tbh

 

[frogwoman]

Not convinced. Black people who 'act white' are often criticised as sell-outs by some other black people, and white people who like stereotypical black culture are often ridiculed e.g. 'wiggers'.

They wouldnt get shouted at in the street, beaten up, denied jobs or medical care or stopped from using toilets though.

 

[Athos]

Not sure if I'm reading this right, are you saying she didn't explicitly lie (genuine q)?

No, it appears that she did. My point was that I'd be equally uncomfortable with her identifying as a black person even if she hadn't got s black man to pretend to be her dad i.e. if she'd just said "I'm black" - analagous with the way that transwomen say, "I'm a woman". I feel happy in the case of transexualism, but not 'transracialism', but can't exactly put my finger on why.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

sorry maurice its bollocks.Can't go into it though.

That's a shame.

 

[frogwoman]

Antisemitism is a special case, though. It is increasing because of anti-Israel agendas.

I'm not sure I agree with you about sexism or about intolerance in general. Intolerance towards the poor is growing, perhaps; a quantity theory of intolerance, though, would suggest that if one group is demonised, it's good for those groups which were previously discriminated against. And that's just as likely to hold as a theory that intolerance of one kind permits other intolerances to grow.

Sexism is definitely increasing.

 

[Athos]

They wouldnt get shouted at in the street, beaten up, denied jobs or medical care or stopped from using toilets though.

No, fair enough. Maybe that's the difference, then - the real world consequences of accepting/not accepting. But that raises the paradox that the more Dolzeal is abused for blacking up, the more we ought to accept that she is black.

 

[Wilf]

No, it appears that she did. My point was that I'd be equally uncomfortable with her identifying as a black person even if she hadn't got s black man to pretend to be her dad i.e. if she'd just said "I'm black" - analagous with the way that transwomen say, "I'm a woman". I feel happy in the case of transexualism, but not 'transracialism', but can't exactly put my finger on why.

Right, ta. I disagree with your line on this, but thanks for the clarification. At least we won't end up arguing about things you haven't said.

 

[frogwoman]

No, fair enough. Maybe that's the difference, then - the real world consequences of accepting/not accepting. But that raises the paradox that the more Dolzeal is abused for blacking up, the more we ought to accept that she is black.

Why? Shes not likely for eg to get killed if she goes to bed with someone and then takes off her makeup and is discovered to be white. Well no more than thats likely to happen with any other woman.

 

[Treacle Toes]

more Dolzeal is abused for blacking up, the more we ought to accept that she is black.

No, she pretended to be Black, plan and simple. That people are unhappy with that is a consequence of that deception.

 

[Citizen66]

What I'm uncomfortable with is her moving into a position of influence: speaking on behalf of black people because of her own experiences of being black. Which is largely manufactured.

 

[Athos]

Right, ta. I disagree with your line on this, but thanks for the clarification. At least we won't end up arguing about things you haven't said.

Cool. But, for the record, my line is that there is difference, but I can't quite explain why.