White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[MochaSoul]

I can only speak for myself and I don't feel I am walking a 'surreal quagmire' of any kind with regard my ethnic identity. I know who my parents are. I know who I am.

Fair comment! If I'm honest I was speaking for a past me that did go through a period of identity tumult due to my own mixed heritage and the push and pull games that members of my own family play/ed without realising it. Not that I resent going through it. It made me think.

 

[rekil]

You are trolling at 8:45am on a Saturday morning. Who does that?

It's 5pm in Korea.

 

[Citizen66]

so no one wants to answer my opinion that it's a silly story designed for morons?

Do you not get bored of this, ninj?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Fair comment! If I'm honest I was speaking for a past me that did go through a period of identity tumult due to my own mixed heritage and the push and pull games that members of my own family play/ed without realising it. Not that I resent going through it. It made me think.

With regard them 'not realising it'...one aspect of how experiences of racism can play out in our lives is how people perceive themselves and project onto others. The macro/institutionalised power dynamic and those values can get reflected into/perpetuated within our micro/familial relations.

Internalised racism is a real thing, as is reactions to racism. You probably already know this and from your post above undoubtably have your own experiences of it.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

I only come on here about 3 times a year and act over the top, don't you get bored of reading this drivel every fucking day and knowing that more than half of the people have left or been banned and still pretending that these conversations are valid despite all of the people who have been excluded? I know I would

How can a conversation be "invalid" just because it doesn't include people who got bored with an old-fashioned format for online interaction, or were banned for various reasons, some of them legitimate and some of them much less so? It's still a conversation.

 

[Citizen66]

I understand and accept your take on it as a valid point, though I think it can be more nuanced (might she have done this art work even if she hadn't decided to adopt this black identity?). However, I don't think it's "weird" for a white person to depict black people, in general. Which is why just saying it's weird is weird to me.

Did the U.S. miss out on the black and white minstrel show?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Internalised racism is a real thing, and from what you said, I guess you are the right race to understand this

Yeah, I am a 400 metres...if one was an egg and spoon one would simply not be right or get it.

 

[Citizen66]

I only come on here about 3 times a year and act over the top, don't you get bored of reading this drivel every fucking day and knowing that more than half of the people have left or been banned and still pretending that these conversations are valid despite all of the people who have been excluded? I know I would

There's specialists out there that can probably help you.

 

[Citizen66]

I thought you were in China anyway. You must manage to slip in some pleasantries and updates during your three monthly drop ins.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why bother ninj? You call us sad but you clearly want back in.

 

[Citizen66]

In Shanghai. just finished for the summer except exams and shizzle, my brother is getting married in august

wishing you a happy everyday

Going back to the toon for it?

 

[MochaSoul]

You probably already know this and from your post above undoubtably have your own experiences of it.

You can say that again. I haven't stopped talking certain family members but for a long time I minimised contact with them because they can't stop urging me to bleach my skin. It took a while until I decided I wasn't going to let the very problem inflicted upon all of us fracture my family relationships with them but even now it's hard for me not to walk out the door when they start. One would have thought this would be something become rarer and rarer but as cosmetic companies make millions exploiting ideals of beauty tied up to racial superiority it's actually becoming more commonplace. It's mad but it's the world we live in.

 

[Treacle Toes]

it's sad because i'm not allowed back in. and loads of people aren't allowed back in. and then you read stuff like this and there are much cleverer people than me who are not on here just because you couldn't have these sort of silly discussions because it's so silly

I have played nice a few times and I end up deliberately getting kicked off here because it's addictive, it's so liberal as well, liberal as in you have to watch what you say all the time because some malcontent is offended by everything.

The rule of thumb has always been don't be a dick. You have been a dick/posted dickish things in the past...then you come back and troll by posting dickish things. This isn't about other people ninj.

 

[Geri]

Just fuck off, nobody care about you. Get over it.

 

[Athos]

If this had been someone who was born into the body of a white man, but identified as a white woman, and lived accordingly (including joining a feminist organisation), anyone who questioned that (even born women who were uncomfortable with it) would be branded a bigot. But, apparently, it's ok for anyone (black or white) to vilify this woman because she appears to be someone who was born in the body of a white woman, but identifies as a black woman, and lives accordingly (including joining a group which represents the interests of black people).

Why is that? Is it because gender is a social construct and race isn't? Is it because gender disphoria is medically recognised? Or some other reason?

I'm not trying to derail this thread, or revisit the issues raised on the other one, but this is directly relevant; it's a clear parallel, but the response is very different - I'm interested in why. For what it's worth, I 'feel' that there's a difference: whilst I consider transwomen to be women, I wouldn't consider this woman to be black. But I can't properly explain why. Is there a rational basis for such a position? Or for the counter-position?

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm not trying to derail this thread, or revisit the issues raised on the other one, but this is directly relevant; it's a clear parallel, but the response is very different - I'm interested in why. For what it's worth, I 'feel' that there's a difference: whilst I consider transwomen to be women, I wouldn't consider this woman to be black. But I can't properly explain why. Is there a rational basis for such a position? Or for the counter-position?

Here's the opinion of a transgender woman:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/12/comparison-transgender-people-rachel-dolezal

 

[Citizen66]

If this had been someone who was born into the body of a white man, but identified as a white woman, and lived accordingly (including joining a feminist organisation), anyone who questioned that (even born women who were uncomfortable with it) would be branded a bigot. But, apparently, it's ok for anyone (black or white) to vilify this woman because she appears to be someone who was born in the body of a white woman, but identifies as a black woman, and lives accordingly (including joining a group which represents the interests of black people).

Why is that? Is it because gender is a social construct and race isn't? Is it because gender disphoria is medically recognised? Or some other reason?

I'm not trying to derail this thread, or revisit the issues raised on the other one, but this is directly relevant; it's a clear parallel, but the response is very different - I'm interested in why. For what it's worth, I 'feel' that there's a difference: whilst I consider transwomen to be women, I wouldn't consider this woman to be black. But I can't properly explain why. Is there a rational basis for such a position? Or for the counter-position?

Good luck!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Here's the opinion of a transgender woman:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/12/comparison-transgender-people-rachel-dolezal

I am glad someone has said it so I don't have to.

 

[Athos]

Here's the opinion of a transgender woman:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/12/comparison-transgender-people-rachel-dolezal

Thanks. But that's deeply flawed, self-serving nonsense. The author just asserts that Dolezal made a choice, whereas trans women don't (which she can't know), and that Dolzeal's position was bought about by exposure to black culture, which seems to deny that there's a social component of gender.

 

[MochaSoul]

I am glad someone has said it so I don't have to.

I actually went looking for a transgender opinion last night because I couldn't put my own thoughts in order (not being that well educated in gender issues). I thought it most informative especially as she has a racial angle of her own to that anchors her opinion.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Thanks. But that's deeply flawed, self-serving nonsense. The author just asserts that Dolezal made a choice, whereas trans women don't (which she can't know), and that Dolzeal's position was bought about by exposure to black culture, which seems to deny that there's a social component of gender.

Perhaps it is your position that is self serving?

The people comparing Dolezal to trans people are depicting our actions as rooted in the same deceptions as hers: her apparent use of skin-darkening agents and products to change the texture of her hair are, implicitly or explicitly, likened to what “men” – to use a trans woman’s example – doing what we do to “deceive” people into thinking we are women. But Dolezal engaged in such actions in order to be perceived as black, in a racialized American environment where that matters. Trans people transition in order to be the gender we feel inside and, while there may come a time when posers will appropriate trendy trans culture for profit, right now, there’s no advantage to transitioning when you’re not trans.

The people using her mistakes to try to “understand” or “explain” the experiences of trans people have none of my empathy; they’re simply propagating the stereotype that trans people are out to fool the rest of you.

 

[killer b]

Thanks. But that's deeply flawed, self-serving nonsense. The author just asserts that Dolezal made a choice, whereas trans women don't (which she can't know), and that Dolzeal's position was bought about by exposure to black culture, which seems to deny that there's a social component of gender.

you can't know either. there's an awful lot of completely baseless supposition going on on this thread. The simplest answer - that she's a con-artist - is most likely, in the absence of any actual information about her motivation.

 

[Athos]

Perhaps it is your position that is self serving?

What interest do you think I'm serving, given that I made it clear that I consider transwomen to be women, but that I don't consider Dolezal to be black?

Instead of snide insinuations about my motivation, why not engage with the substance of the discussion?

 

[Athos]

you can't know either. there's an awful lot of completely baseless supposition going on on this thread. The simplest answer - that she's a con-artist - is most likely, in the absence of any actual information about her motivation.

As I explained, my instinct is in line with that, but I'm hoping for some rational explanation.

 

[killer b]

there's nothing irrational about con-artistry is there?

 

[Santino]

I have played nice a few times and I end up deliberately getting kicked off here because it's addictive, it's so liberal as well, liberal as in you have to watch what you say all the time because some malcontent is offended by everything.

You can't even call it Christmas any more.

 

[MochaSoul]

The author just asserts that Dolezal made a choice, whereas trans women don't (which she can't know), and that Dolzeal's position was bought about by exposure to black culture, which seems to deny that there's a social component of gender.

You wouldn't need to deny your parentage were if you just felt black. You'd just proclaim your racial identity in spite of everything. That's what I think. there are enough white people out there claiming a black heritage and even taking advantage of such an identity for self-serving purposes (Iggy Azalea, etc) without going through the whole rigmarole of inventing a black dad, etc.

 

[Athos]

there's nothing irrational about con-artistry is there?

No, but there is something inconsistent about the way that some people are considered con artists by choosing to alter one aspect of their socially constructed identity whereas others aren't.

 

[butchersapron]

What I find surprising is that fooling all the white people must have been way the easiest part.Quite an achievement if she sustained the pretence over a period of years as she seems to have done

Who says that was the 'easiest part'? What an odd thing to say.

 

[Pickman's model]

If this had been someone who was born into the body of a white man, but identified as a white woman, and lived accordingly (including joining a feminist organisation), anyone who questioned that (even born women who were uncomfortable with it) would be branded a bigot. But, apparently, it's ok for anyone (black or white) to vilify this woman because she appears to be someone who was born in the body of a white woman, but identifies as a black woman, and lives accordingly (including joining a group which represents the interests of black people).

Why is that? Is it because gender is a social construct and race isn't? Is it because gender disphoria is medically recognised? Or some other reason?

I'm not trying to derail this thread, or revisit the issues raised on the other one, but this is directly relevant; it's a clear parallel, but the response is very different - I'm interested in why. For what it's worth, I 'feel' that there's a difference: whilst I consider transwomen to be women, I wouldn't consider this woman to be black. But I can't properly explain why. Is there a rational basis for such a position? Or for the counter-position?

when you say she lives accordingly do you mean many black women - or indeed many people of either sex and any hue - would lie about their parentage to the extent of getting someone to pretend to be their dad to fit in?