Is America heading towards dictatorship?

[NoXion]

To bring it down to basics, the problem is capitalism. Structurally, capitalism embeds three ‘cultural syndromes’ via its fundamental tenets. The first is the profit motive, which becomes institutionalised in our laws and externalised into in our education and market-based governance systems. The naturalisation and internalisation of the profit motive then creates a psychological focus on personal gain. Second, we have competitive markets. This becomes externalised into institutions that require agents to seek primacy, which is internalised as life being a zero-sum game that to win, others must lose. Finally, we have private property. This is institutionalised via both laws and practices that protect the rights of private ownership even over other moral imperatives, such as the right to exist. The internalisation of these externalised norms creates conspicuous consumption and the extension of the self via ownership. You put those three syndromes together and you have aggressive individualism, in which people see themselves as atomised actors out to get the most gain for themselves and seeing this this as best achieved by making others lose. The ultimate expression of that is what we’re seeing in Trumpism.

Talking like this gets one dismissed as a commie puke by the vast majority of MAGA adherents.

 

[Rimbaud]

for me rimbaud was constrasting the period from the civil rights movement to now. that pre-trump there was a period of liberal democracy that they're contrasting with trump. i don't think that really stands up to examination. take obama's use of drones in assassinations for example, including at least one of an american citizen. and going further back, the use an executive order by fdr to intern japanese americans. trump has not yet been an actual dictator, and should he become one then he will be building on foundations laid by previous presidents in the same way that hitler's regime built on the previous government by decrees of chancellors such as bruning.

I'm not nostalgic for it, but I fear something worse is coming, and acting like because liberal democracy isn't perfect that it's no better than what Trump may turn it into is bad politics, as the implication would be that it doesn't matter if Trump stacks the supreme court, fixes elections, annexes terrotory and fires all Democrats in the federal government. It does matter.

 

[kabbes]

Talking like this gets one dismissed as a commie puke by the vast majority of MAGA adherents.

Indeed. You can’t approach people with theory. You need to do so with practices and thus build the praxis of a different world.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not nostalgic for it, but I fear something worse is coming, and acting like because liberal democracy isn't perfect that it's no better than what Trump may turn it into is bad politics, as the implication would be that it doesn't matter if Trump stacks the supreme court, fixes elections, annexes terrotory and fires all Democrats in the federal government. It does matter.

your fear does matter. but not to me. what trump might do matters less to me than what he actually does. it's fucking appalling politics to elevate what may be or what you fear might happen above what is and does happen.

 

[HeAthen]

I’m not sure it is actually possible to engage with the reasons for Trump and also shout at those reasons. They are diametrically opposed, because one involves building bridges and the other involves destroying them. And that’s true even if — maybe especially if — the bridges being destroyed are just in your own head. You can’t engage with a topic if you are fighting it at the same time.

To bring it down to basics, the problem is capitalism. Structurally, capitalism embeds three ‘cultural syndromes’ via its fundamental tenets. The first is the profit motive, which becomes institutionalised in our laws and externalised into in our education and market-based governance systems. The naturalisation and internalisation of the profit motive then creates a psychological focus on personal gain. Second, we have competitive markets. This becomes externalised into institutions that require agents to seek primacy, which is internalised as life being a zero-sum game that to win, others must lose. Finally, we have private property. This is institutionalised via both laws and practices that protect the rights of private ownership even over other moral imperatives, such as the right to exist. The internalisation of these externalised norms creates conspicuous consumption and the extension of the self via ownership. You put those three syndromes together and you have aggressive individualism, in which people see themselves as atomised actors out to get the most gain for themselves and seeing this this as best achieved by making others lose. The ultimate expression of that is what we’re seeing in Trumpism.

How do we reverse that? Not by embedding in our response the same assumptions that we are trying to defuse. Individualism is fought with collectivism, not by a more aggressive individualism.


You’re welcome, same to you.

I'll have a proper read later (sorry, busy at work now - didn't want you to think I was ignoring).

 

[Rimbaud]

your fear does matter. but not to me. what trump might do matters less to me than what he actually does. it's fucking appalling politics to elevate what may be or what you fear might happen above what is and does happen.

Being blind to or ignoring emerging trends is worse politics.

My fears may not come to pass and I hope they don't, but they are hardly baseless.

 

[NoXion]

Indeed. You can’t approach people with theory. You need to do so with practices and thus build the praxis of a different world.

People are constrained by the realities of the world they actually live in. People who have to work for a living are often poor in the kind of time, mental resources and physical energy that effective "practice" would seem to demand. People not in work are often in circumstances that don't grant them much either, because they're surviving on meagre state support and/or the charity of others.

 

[Pickman's model]

Being blind to or ignoring emerging trends is worse politics.

My fears may not come to pass and I hope they don't, but they are hardly baseless.

as climate change progresses, it has effects on populations and hence governments. although we need stability and the sort of leadership which sees international cooperation as the solution above promotion of national interests to resolve the issue, nativism and nationalism are thriving to our short- and long-term detriment. trump is a symptom of this trend, not its cause.

you say i am ignoring emerging trends. perhaps i am but i made the point that he will build on precedents set by previous presidents. your 'liberal democracy of the last 60 years' is the context, the backdrop, against which he will make his decisions, and tbh what passes for democracy in the us has often been very far from liberal over the period you named.

oh and i never said your fears were baseless, i said they don't matter as much as what actually occurs.

 

[andysays]

But why should he not be treated like any other criminal? Yes, he was found guilty on all counts but what was the point of all of that lengthy and costly process if he receives no form of punishment for his crimes?

We don't yet know what sentence he may receive, but the US (and the UK, and various other "democracies") has a long history of members of the elite not receiving adequate punishment for their crimes, even when they are found guilty.

That in itself says nothing about whether they are, or are heading towards, a dictatorship.

The US really is a ludicrous shithole.

I don't think anyone posting here would argue any different.

 

[The39thStep]

Trump's new defence attorney for national economic security for the US and global community


View attachment ssstwitter.com_1736504120772.mp4

 

[ska invita]

your fear does matter. but not to me. what trump might do matters less to me than what he actually does. it's fucking appalling politics to elevate what may be or what you fear might happen above what is and does happen.

Harsh tone in your post. The OP asks "Is America heading towards dictatorship?"....the word heading implies what might happen in the future, not what has already happened. Trump isnt even in post yet.

 

[Pickman's model]

Harsh tone in your post. The OP asks "Is America heading towards dictatorship?"....the word heading implies what might happen in the future, not what has already happened. Trump isnt even in post yet.

that's well spotted, the question in the op, but the suggestion that i haven't addressed it on this thread ignores what i have said about, for example, executive orders or precedents which have already been set. it further ignores that the republicans have a majority in both the house and senate: trump does not need to govern by executive orders when congress is on his side anyway, to say nothing of the supreme court.

 

[PTK]

Was the USA "democratic" when great actors like this were not allowed to appear in films because of their political views? Is Trump going to introduce a new "blacklist" in Hollywood?

 

[hitmouse]

Isn't there some plan to fire all Democrats in the federal government?

He has already made some progress in filling the Supreme Court with his supporters.

Packing the federal government and legislative branch with MAGA would effectively overrule any kinds of oversights to block Trump's agenda or prevent electoral fraud.

I think this is going to be an interesting contradiction, and a potential limit to Trump's ambitions. Trump could, if he wants, fire a huge swath of existing civil servants or whatever they're called in the US and replace them all with racist otaku from 4chan, or he can retain the expertise needed to run a functioning authoritarian state, but I'm not sure he can do both. If he really does go ahead with stacking government bureaucracies with people whose main qualification is loyalty to the MAGA project, I genuinely don't know how that'll turn out but I'm not confident it would go well for him.

There’s nothing you can do to stop Trump’s power on the 20 January. He’s already won that round of the game you want to play. You have to build for the future. If you’re worried about what he might do in four years, work on building the structure that will stop him.

If I'm reading it right, I think this first sentence is misguided. (This is perhaps the only time in my life I'll get to accuse kabbes of oversimplifying something, so I've got to make the most of it while I can!) With the obvious caveat that most of us aren't Americans so we can't really do that much effective anyway, I think that state power always relies on the government employees carrying it out and the population going along with it, which means that it can always be limited and contested.

 

[Coffeecup]

that's well spotted, the question in the op, but the suggestion that i haven't addressed it on this thread ignores what i have said about, for example, executive orders or precedents which have already been set. it further ignores that the republicans have a majority in both the house and senate: trump does not need to govern by executive orders when congress is on his side anyway, to say nothing of the supreme court.

Congress is up for election every two years. So it’s not guaranteed the GOP will have full control in two years. Senators it’s every six years. Some Senators will have served their six years and will be up for election too. Trump will think about his future to guarantee his position. Right now he can get Congress and the Senate to vote for anything he wants including cutting their own powers.

 

[PTK]

Congress is up for election every two years. So it’s not guaranteed the GOP will have full control in two years. Senators it’s every six years. Some Senators will have served their six years and will be up for election too. Trump will think about his future to guarantee his position. Right now he can get Congress and the Senate to vote for anything he wants including cutting their own powers.

You mean, like, through an enabling act?

 

[Coffeecup]

You mean, like, through an enabling act?

It could be but mainly by loyalty to Trump.

 

[Pickman's model]

Congress is up for election every two years. So it’s not guaranteed the GOP will have full control in two years. Senators it’s every six years. Some Senators will have served their six years and will be up for election too. Trump will think about his future to guarantee his position. Right now he can get Congress and the Senate to vote for anything he wants including cutting their own powers.

so you're saying that for the next period he has control of congress, and i daresay much of what he wants to get done he'll do while the doing's good. as for the bit about abridging powers of congress, well that's not strictly accurate, being as much of the powers and authority of congress is laid out in the constitution, and that's not changed by a simple majority in either or both houses. incidentally, congress is formed of the house of representatives and senate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have to say that I'm wholly unconvinced by the various comparisons to Hitler that are flying around. There are few points of similarity and important points of difference. And I think it's a bit of a distraction from what is likely to be the stuff that needs somehow to be resisted. He has the trifecta for two years, albeit a narrow one, and he is likely to want to make full use of it. No need to trample over the constitution when he has that level of power already.

What Trump will and can do legally and constitutionally is itself worrying enough, and it is what we are certainly faced with. TBH most of the rest of this comes across as symptomatic of this strange period of waiting, in which fears are amplified and anxieties rise.

 

[Coffeecup]

so you're saying that for the next period he has control of congress, and i daresay much of what he wants to get done he'll do while the doing's good. as for the bit about abridging powers of congress, well that's not strictly accurate, being as much of the powers and authority of congress is laid out in the constitution, and that's not changed by a simple majority in either or both houses. incidentally, congress is formed of the house of representatives and senate.

It’s the US government. They both sit in the same building. I don’t know what Trump will do, just pointing out what he might do. What’s to say he puts in amendments to the Constitution? Can he be stopped?

For the record, I don’t think he will become a Dictator but he may try and in doing make an almighty mess. That’s the real worry.

 

[redsquirrel]

This is why we need a European Army. It should have got off the ground after Russia invaded Ukraine. With US behaving like it appears to be under Trump maybe it is time to get it off the ground. If US annexes Greenland we have to at least kick US military bases out of Europe.

Have you heard of a man called Mason?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It’s the US government. They both sit in the same building. I don’t know what Trump will do, just pointing out what he might do. What’s to say he puts in amendments to the Constitution? Can he be stopped?

Yes, currently he can be stopped from doing that. To amend the constitution, he would require a 2/3 majority in Congress, ie he would need a sizeable number of Democrats to vote for it. Trump's actions are constrained by the system, and he doesn't have arbitrary power to change that system. I don't doubt that he will attempt various unconstitutional things, but as he found out last time, when he also had a trifecta, he doesn't have unlimited power. He actually had a significantly bigger majority in the House of Reps in 2016 than he will have this time.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Agree with this. He's legacy hunting. He didn't really achieve that much first time round and he wants to be a big name in history like Washington or Lincoln. I suspect this kind of thing will define his presidency, along with economic reforms, rather than culture war stuff. That was useful to get him where he is, and he'll no doubt throw a few bones in that direction, but this is going to be all about him and his place in history rather than whatever Heritage or the Christo-fascists want. He doesn't need them anymore and he won't need them again.

Interesting, my impression is that Trump doesn’t have the capacity to think in terms of legacy, he’s too lazy and myopic. Look at his business record, a series a short-term con-jobs that all end up bankrupt. He can only think in terms of one-off transactional relationships where he fucks somebody else over. I think he'll have the following goals in his presidency:

(1) Self-enrichment - use the levers of power to loot as much as possible for him and his cronies:
(2) Revenge - seek revenge on his real and perceived political opponents;
(3) Self-preservation - ensure that when he leaves office he will be able to evade criminal and civil liability;
(4) Sadism - my impression of Trump is that he is a sadist - he enjoys inflicting pain and misery, he will use his power to cause as much harm and suffering that he perceives to not threaten his own self-interest.

In short, I think Trump's political motivations are pretty much the worst ones possibly imaginable. It's going to be a fucking rough four years.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We're basically going to have to wait until this weird interregnum period is over to get an idea of what the next two years will be like (won't comment on after that as he may very well lose the trifecta after two years). I still suspect that this administration will be chaotic. In particular, it is likely to be terrible at responding to events, as it was when confronted by Covid19. Covid19 actually saved a few administrations around the world (in the short term) with the 'rally round' effect. Trump dealt with it so badly that it was a major factor in him losing the 2020 election. Who knows what the next crisis will be? I will predict that, whatever it is, Trump will handle it badly.

 

[Coffeecup]

We're basically going to have to wait until this weird interregnum period is over to get an idea of what the next two years will be like (won't comment on after that as he may very well lose the trifecta after two years). I still suspect that this administration will be chaotic. In particular, it is likely to be terrible at responding to events, as it was when confronted by Covid19. Covid19 actually saved a few administrations around the world (in the short term) with the 'rally round' effect. Trump dealt with it so badly that it was a major factor in him losing the 2020 election. Who knows what the next crisis will be? I will predict that, whatever it is, Trump will handle it badly.

I predict the economy.