Is America heading towards dictatorship?

[A380]

Presumably on the Greenland thing the Americans will just throw a fuckton of Money at Denmark. They doubled the size of their country with the Louisiana Purchase and massively increased it again when the brought Alaska.


If this is serious, and not just classic dead cat tactics from Trump, that’s how this will go.

 

[breadandcircuse]

Well, that does not answer my question. It does not explain how Trump could become a dictator. I mentions nothing about how he could revoke the right to vote or the rule of law.

The plan to fire government employees and replace them with loyalists is a start in dismantling the establishment and how things run. Do you really think a fascist will follow things like the rule of law, when he has the SC in his pocket, along with many judges he put in place? The suppression of the vote has been going on in many places, making it difficult for many in areas that are usually against him, getting to vote. There has been a deliberate attempt to stop those who would vote against him, which is probably why he is now in power. Just look up the amount of voters who say their vote was not counted.

Are you really ignorant of all that has been going on in his attempt to suppress democracy?

 

[PTK]

The plan to fire government employees and replace them with loyalists is a start in dismantling the establishment and how things run. Do you really think a fascist will follow things like the rule of law, when he has the SC in his pocket, along with many judges he put in place? The suppression of the vote has been going on in many places, making it as difficult for many in areas that are usually against him, getting to vote. There has been a deliberate attempt to stop those who would vote against him, which is probably why he is now in power. Just look up the amount of voters who say their vote was not counted.

Are you really ignorant of all that has been going on in his attempt to suppress democracy?

Why would Trump need the Supreme Court in his pocket if he is going to abolish the rule of law?

 

[Serge Forward]

Why would Trump need the Supreme Court in his pocket if he is going to abolish the rule of law?

To give the appearance of rule of law? Not all dictators like to be obvious about the whole dictatorship thing y'know... in the same way racists and fascists have been known to lose their shit when called a racist and a fascist.

 

[Coffeecup]

Well, that does not answer my question. It does not explain how Trump could become a dictator. I mentions nothing about how he could revoke the right to vote or the rule of law.

Conservative Christian values. Full executive power to the President. Promote the death penalty. Ban abortion. Ban porn. Replace civil servants with Presidential loyalists. Get rid of the education dept. Dismantling Home Land Security. Take control of the DOJ and FBI. Ban contraception. Stop research into stem cells. Use the military for domestic purposes.

Just some of project 25.

 

[Dystopiary]

Trump already has all the authority he needs to order whatever he wants to happen for at least the next two years and, quite possibly, the next four. He can either use that time to do all the things he wants to do or he can spend the time instead engaged in the civil war that would kick off if he tried to actually make himself a legal dictator. He can either have four years of fun followed by triumphant retirement at 82 or he can have four years of annoying detail combined with the rest of his life worrying that what happened to Gadaffi will happen to him too. I’m with PTK that he doesn’t need to go through any transformation of governance. It doesn’t realistically help him achieve anything he can’t already do.

And if after that four years he doesn't want to hand back the keys, again, only this time he's not going to take no for an answer? That's being a dictator innit.

 

[breadandcircuse]

Why would Trump need the Supreme Court in his pocket if he is going to abolish the rule of law?

He was in serious danger of going to prison if he did not win the election. They gave him immunity from his crap, against what legal scholars have said is legitimate, so he is where he is now. Having the facade of a SC which is supposedly independent, all helps with the image. How can he be a dictator when the law carries on as usual (but it doesn't?). The rest of the world can look on as he promulgates his takeover, and he can gaslight any questions with that bs.

Are you really serious about not knowing any of this?

 

[A380]

I’m amazed that some on the left have so little faith in their fellow humans. Especially as the kind of socialism I aspire to depends on the masses of humanity.

Do people really think the whole of American Civil Society is just going to roll over because Trump tries to get them to? That every US journalist, lawyer, civil servant, cop, teacher, business owner, doctor, judge, soldier, politician, revolutionary, priest, rabbi, anarchist, is just going to say ‘ yeah, ok pal, you carry on’. Have a bit more faith in people.

It’s like those who think that if Trump does pull out of NATO and their other commitments Putin and Xi are going to be able to bestride the world and the Japanese, Koreans, Indonesians Taiwanese, Poles, Germans, French and indeed us will just meekly roll over.

 

[PTK]

Conservative Christian values. Full executive power to the President. Promote the death penalty. Ban abortion. Ban porn. Replace civil servants with Presidential loyalists. Get rid of the education dept. Dismantling Home Land Security. Take control of the DOJ and FBI. Ban contraception. Stop research into stem cells. Use the military for domestic purposes.

Just some of project 25.

"Full executive power to the President" is the only item in your list that could qualify for the label "dictatorship". The other things could be implemented without the USA being a dictatorship.
How would Trump achieve full executive power?

 

[PTK]

He was in serious danger of going to prison if he did not win the election. They gave him immunity from his crap, against what legal scholars have said is legitimate, so he is where he is now. Having the facade of a SC which is supposedly independent, all helps with the image. How can he be a dictator when the law carries on as usual (but it doesn't?). The rest of the world can look on as he promulgates his takeover, and he can gaslight any questions with that bs.

Are you really serious about not knowing any of this?

How would Trump take over, though? Would he present some sort of enabling act to Congress? How could he enforce his wish to be a dictator?

 

[breadandcircuse]

I’m amazed that some on the left have so little faith in their fellow humans. Especially as the kind of socialism I aspire to depends on the masses of humanity.

Do people really think the whole of American Civil Society is just going to roll over because Trump tries to get them to? That every US journalist, lawyer, civil servant, cop, teacher, business owner, doctor, judge, soldier, politician, revolutionary, priest, rabbi, anarchist, is just going to say ‘ yeah, ok pal, you carry on’. Have a bit more faith in people.

It’s like those who think that if Trump does pull out of NATO Putin and Xi are going to be able to bestride the world and the Japanese, Koreans, Indonesians Taiwanese, Poles, Germans, French and indeed us will just meekly roll over.

People are bending the knee already. I really hope there are enough that won't, but just look at history. The MSM have enabled him for years. If they did their jobs properly, he would now be in prison, as they would have been reporting all of his criminality, instead of pandering to him. The law has seemingly given up on him too. Anyone else who did a fraction of the shit he has, would have been banged up well before now. When the establishment caves to a dictator, how do you think the public are going to beat him?

I don't doubt there will be some who are trying to hold out, but in a fascist world, they aren't going to last long. It's no surprise the only book he has ever read is Mein Kampf, with his adulation of Hitler.

 

[PTK]

Conservative Christian values. Full executive power to the President. Promote the death penalty. Ban abortion. Ban porn. Replace civil servants with Presidential loyalists. Get rid of the education dept. Dismantling Home Land Security. Take control of the DOJ and FBI. Ban contraception. Stop research into stem cells. Use the military for domestic purposes.

Just some of project 25.

By the way, given how much civil liberties have been eroded by the establishment of the Department for Homeland Security, then abolishing it would be a good thing, would it not?

 

[PTK]

People are bending the knee already. I really hope there are enough that won't, but just look at history. The MSM have enabled him for years. If they did their jobs properly, he would now be in prison, as they would have been reporting all of his criminality, instead of pandering to him. The law has seemingly given up on him too. Anyone else who did a fraction of the shit he has, would have been banged up well before now. When the establishment caves to a dictator, how do you think the public are going to beat him?

I don't doubt there will be some who are trying to hold out, but in a fascist world, they aren't going to last long. It's no surprise the only book he has ever read is Mein Kampf, with his adulation of Hitler.

Trump is not yet a dictator, though. How would he beome one? Would he present a bill to Congress abolishing elections?

 

[breadandcircuse]

How would Trump take over, though? Would he present some sort of enabling act to Congress? How could he enforce his wish to be a dictator?

If Congress don't do his bidding, they will be ignored/erased. As I keep saying, fascists don't ultimately play by the rules. Any historian will point you to how dictators have come to power, and then retained it. Hitler got voted in, but can he be portrayed as a democratic leader and not a dictator?

 

[Serge Forward]

Trump is not yet a dictator, though. How would he beome one? Would he present a bill to Congress abolishing elections?

Nah, too obvious. Increased voter suppression and criminalisation of certain sections of society could make elections nominally legit but impossible for any opposition to actually win.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If Congress don't do his bidding, they will be ignored/erased. As I keep saying, fascists don't ultimately play by the rules. Any historian will point you to how dictators have come to power, and then retained it. Hitler got voted in, but can he be portrayed as a democratic leader and not a dictator?

Within a year, Hitler had introduced the oath to him and the Weimar constitution was dead. Trump won't be overturning the US constitution.

 

[breadandcircuse]

Within a year, Hitler had introduced the oath to him and the Weimar constitution was dead. Trump won't be overturning the US constitution.

Why are you so sure of that?

I expect the thing will be following Hitler's lead as much as he can. Wait for the oath to him. The fact they have been interviewing for months to replace the civil servants with loyalists to him, speaks volumes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why are you so sure of that?

I think it's right to be concerned about what Trump will do, particularly (for non-Americans) wrt the environment, and it's understandable to be fearful. And I have myself called him a wannabe dictator. I still think he is that.

But there are huge obstacles in his way in terms of a power grab. The Weimar constitution was only a few years old. The US constitution has deep institutional roots in the US, and Trump himself relies upon it to exercise power. It's not a comparable situation.

 

[xenon]

Who cares.

Yes that’s right, who cares if Trump will be a dictator. Oh let’s be more precise, whether the mechanisms exist whereby he becomes a dictator by some definition that you’re arguing over. As that’s what it’s important, get a definition right.

 

[breadandcircuse]

I think it's right to be concerned about what Trump will do, particularly (for non-Americans) wrt the environment, and it's understandable to be fearful. And I have myself called him a wannabe dictator. I still think he is that.

But there are huge obstacles in his way in terms of a power grab. The Weimar constitution was only a few years old. The US constitution has deep institutional roots in the US, and Trump himself relies upon it to exercise power. It's not a comparable situation.

But he doesn't understand it, like most of his cult. They all rant about the Constitution, but don't actually know it or understand it, like many of the populace. If it was being followed scrupulously, he would have been banned from the presidency with the 14th Amendment. So if it isn't being followed to the letter, then it will be perfectly possible to override it to get what he wants.

 

[Serge Forward]

Who cares.

Yes that’s right, who cares if Trump will be a dictator. Oh let’s be more precise, whether the mechanisms exist whereby he becomes a dictator by some definition that you’re arguing over. As that’s what it’s important, get a definition right.

Some people do. Believe it or not, on discussion boards, people care enough to comment on stuff like this.

 

[Rimbaud]

That does not explain how Trump could become a dictator. It makes no reference to the political mechanisms.

Isn't there some plan to fire all Democrats in the federal government?

He has already made some progress in filling the Supreme Court with his supporters.

Packing the federal government and legislative branch with MAGA would effectively overrule any kinds of oversights to block Trump's agenda or prevent electoral fraud.

I don't think he will abolish elections, but I do not believe for a second that the 2028 election will be free and fair. Maybe that is when civil war starts.

 

[Rimbaud]

I really wish I had a better understanding of China. I'm unsure of where the line is between western propaganda and actual reality of life there, in terms of human rights etc.

Tbh I'd say you probably have a fairly accurate picture of China. Mainstream news (e.g. BBC) is pretty factual in what it reports on China and not overtly propagandistic. Obviously life isn't terrible in China either, and most people are accustomed to not caring about politics and focusing on making money and not thinking too much, but everything bad you hear about human rights and censorship and so on is definitely true, even if most people there don't really push the boundaries enough to really feel them. Tibet and Xinjiang are certainly colonial in nature and highly repressive.

What isn't fully captured in western coverage is the extent to which a rather Darwinian "realism" pervades society, and the extent to which "public opinion guidance" is taken for granted, as well as a firm belief that the world is hierarchical in nature and inferiors should obey superiors. They tend to assume that smaller countries aren't truly sovereign but are pawns of great powers (US, Russia and China... maybe India) and that whenever a country disagrees with them that it is because the US told them to, which tells you a lot about how they will behave if they had the same degree of influence and force projection.

Nor is the degree of xenophobia and Han chauvinism evident in mainstream media reports.

This stuff means it is definitely not good for us to ally closer with China. If they could, they would try to expand their control over media to us as well, and in fact have previously used their economic leverage to force censorship upon Cambridge University Press and use economic leverage wherever they can to exert influence and control. E.g. they didn't like Liu Xiaobo getting the Nobel Peace Prize so informally sanctioned Norway for a while by banning their salmon imports, and there are many such examples of them using market access to aggressively discipline smaller countries or individual companies (e.g. forcing Hilton to remove Taiwan as a nationality option on their booking website and so on). So very bad idea to become dependent on them and this behaviour is why most countries are diversifying and derisking from China. I don't think the US has ever had anything approaching this level of micro-managing control freakery in their relationships with allies and trade partners.

Everytime a country has made overtures of friendship to them they have taken it as submission and started acting in a domineering and imperious way towards that country, see Phillipines for instance, whose attempts to move away from the US and towards China resulting in China encroaching on their territory. Something similar but to a lesser degree happened with Australia too.

There's a reason why China lacks true allies, apart from perhaps Russia, but I suspect eventually a Russia weakened by war will realise China is a far bigger threat to it than NATO. The US is definitely a lesser evil in comparison, although it's obvious now that Europe needs to unite and stand by itself.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Presumably on the Greenland thing the Americans will just throw a fuckton of Money at Denmark. They doubled the size of their country with the Louisiana Purchase and massively increased it again when the brought Alaska.


If this is serious, and not just classic dead cat tactics from Trump, that’s how this will go.

And DK have just agreed to host a US base on Bornholm. The island to the south of Sweden. many of their companies have big contracts with the US military. Making the foundation for many pensions. Denmark would stand to lose bigly.

 

[HeAthen]

And if after that four years he doesn't want to hand back the keys, again, only this time he's not going to take no for an answer? That's being a dictator innit.

Or pass it onto one of his spawn.