what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

[Idris2002]

Yeah, my point is that those stories were actually true, despite being claimed as false for the apologists of the German state.

Exactly, that's basically what I thought about world war 1. Bizarre that people are still trying to claim Britain was in the right.

Christ, I must stop speed reading like this.

 

[frogwoman]

Another idea that I have even come across on occasion from people on here is the idea that while the Spanish, French etc empires were all cunts, the British empire was fairly 'benign' and didn't do anything wrong.

 

[dylanredefined]

The soldiers had quit and was setting up soviets all over Europe - check out the belgian communes.

The top brass - which in your mind = army, not so powerful. In fact, define army in your terms/post.

So who was fighting till the armistice was declared? Were the allies shooting at each other till 11:00hrs

 

[frogwoman]

So who was fighting till the armistice was declared? Were the allies shooting at each other till 11:00hrs

Not all the German soldiers were though were they (a fact that seriously pissed off Hitler and his military backers)

 

[butchersapron]

So who was fighting till the armistice was declared? Were the allies shooting at each other till 11:00hrs

Who was killing officers and going home setting up revolutionary communes on the way? It was the German army.

 

[dylanredefined]

Another idea that I have even come across on occasion from people on here is the idea that while the Spanish, French etc empires were all cunts, the British empire was fairly 'benign' and didn't do anything wrong.

Nahh they were all horrible at times Belgian Congo is probably the worst of a terrible lot.

 

[frogwoman]

Nahh they were all horrible at times Belgian Congo is probably the worst of a terrible lot.

Nah, it wasn't you I was referring to but it is a pretty common place idea sadly.

 

[dylanredefined]

Who was killing officers and going home setting up revolutionary communes on the way? It was the German army.

Only because their state had been broken and beaten.

 

[butchersapron]

Only because their state had been broken and beaten.

So it's only true because it's true.

 

[dylanredefined]

Nah, it wasn't you I was referring to but it is a pretty common place idea sadly.

No one likes the truth and there is so much imperial propaganda floating around even now.

 

[dylanredefined]

So it's only true because it's true.

Well they only discovered revolutionary fever after the allies started winning

 

[butchersapron]

Well they only discovered revolutionary fever after the allies started winning

No they didn't.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on here.

But you accept that your earlier posts were nonsense now?

 

[likesfish]

No it wasn't the Germans were defeated thats when the mutinys started
Trying to send the fleet out to die gloriously Was the last straw .
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Days_Offensive Along with the royal navy blocade broke germany the revolutions were a symptom of the collapse not the cause.
Morale had collapsed in the navy the main fleet had been stripped of sailors who wanted to fight, those that did had volunteered for u boats and torpedo boats the ones left with the main fleet had been stuck in harbour on half rations under brutal discipline not a way of building morale.
The last german offensive had failed and haig had finally figure put how to fight a modern war

 

[Idris2002]

Well the German generals obviously didn't see themselves as defeated if they were trying to send the fleet out again.

 

[butchersapron]

No it wasn't the Germans were defeated thats when the mutinys started
Trying to send the fleet out to die gloriously Was the last straw .
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Days_Offensive Along with the royal navy blocade broke germany the revolutions were a symptom of the collapse not the cause.
Morale had collapsed in the navy the main fleet had been stripped of sailors who wanted to fight, those that did had volunteered for u boats and torpedo boats the ones left with the main fleet had been stuck in harbour on half rations under brutal discipline not a way of building morale.
The last german offensive had failed and haig had finally figure put how to fight a modern war

What on earth are you an about? An army with only generals is not an army. So to describe the generals of a deserted and revolted army as the army is worthless.

 

[likesfish]

The mutinys and revoultionary activity started because of defeat not the germans were stabbed in the back by the communists a dangerous lie belivd by the nazis.
The were blocaded by sea and starving at home and defeated on the battle field not stabbed in th back.

 

[frogwoman]

Who's saying they were stabbed in the back though?

 

[butchersapron]

The mutinys and revoultionary activity started because of defeat not the germans were stabbed in the back by the communists a dangerous lie belivd by the nazis.
The were blocaded by sea and starving at home and defeated on the battle field not stabbed in th back.

They started because the soldiers and sailors had decided not to die for their generals. And they stabbed the generals right in the back. As was proper and fitting. Your problem - and the other solider boy - is in mistaking the generals for the army and the army for the people.

 

[cesare]

They started because the soldiers and sailors had decided not to die for their generals. And they stabbed the generals right in the back. As was proper and fitting. Your problem - and the other solider boy - is in mistaking the generals for the army and the army for the people.

Army = the people = apolitical; is a theme throughout this thread from many of the serving/ex serving people. That's how they get them to "serve" though, innit.

 

[coley]

Army = the people = apolitical; is a theme throughout this thread from many of the serving/ex serving people. That's how they get them to "serve" though, innit.

What's wrong in deciding to join an organisation that has always had the overwhelming support of the general public?
It's not like the army has a history of attempting to conquer and subjugate our European neighbours, is it?

 

[ddraig]

What's wrong in deciding to join an organisation that has always had the overwhelming support of the general public?
It's not like the army has a history of attempting to conquer and subjugate our European neighbours, is it?

they done a proper number on you!

 

[butchersapron]

What's wrong in deciding to join an organisation that has always had the overwhelming support of the general public?
It's not like the army has a history of attempting to conquer and subjugate our European neighbours, is it?

Don't try and spin this into an anti-individual soldier thing please.

 

[coley]

they done a proper number on you!

I enjoyed it

 

[coley]

Don't try and spin this into an anti-individual soldier thing please.

Not at all, the main thrust on here,by some,seems to be against the need for ( and a distain) for the military in general.

 

[butchersapron]

Not at all, the main thrust on here,by some,seems to be against the need for ( and a distain) for the military in general.

You've entirely missed the whole point that people have been arguing then, which was an entirely about the structural role of state funded and state run militaries.

 

[coley]

The thread is all over the shop, few pages ago people seemed to be suggesting we all become mindless automatons on taking the oath. There are those who don't like the military which is fair enough, though I prefer those who are honest enough to say why, those with Irish republican sympathies for instance.

 

[butchersapron]

The thread is all over the shop, few pages ago people seemed to be suggesting we all become mindless automatons on taking the oath. There are those who don't like the military which is fair enough, though I prefer those who are honest enough to say why, those with Irish republican sympathies for instance.

The thread isn't all over the place - it's remarkably focused. What's all over the place is your and others understanding of what being said about the role of the military - as military - not as individuals.

 

[coley]

The thread isn't all over the place - it's remarkably focused. What's all over the place is your and others understanding of what being said about the role of the military - as military - not as individuals.

If you say so.

 

[DotCommunist]

What's wrong in deciding to join an organisation that has always had the overwhelming support of the general public?
It's not like the army has a history of attempting to conquer and subjugate our European neighbours, is it?

the soldier as an honourable profession is a relatively recent modern thing btw.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Another idea that I have even come across on occasion from people on here is the idea that while the Spanish, French etc empires were all cunts, the British empire was fairly 'benign' and didn't do anything wrong.

The British Empire was marginally better than some of the others. Funnily enough the 'laid back' Dutch and Belgians were possibly the most savage of colonialists.

Britain was very successful in the empire stakes, we annexed huge chunks of the world. We were good at it, and benefited greatly as a nation.

That was then, with the norms that were extant then. Occupying other people's land was fine. Virtually enslaving, or actually enslaving a goodly proportion of the people's of these lands was fine, and we did it.

Now, it is not all right. The norms have changed, the ethos has changed.

I do not feel one moment of guilt with regard to either the Empire, or the slave trade. It was wrong, but a wrong that I had no part of. Given the number of black people who share my somewhat uncommon surname, it seems logical that some of my ancestors did have a hand in it, but as there has been no cash passed down the generations, again, I feel no guilt whatsoever.

People who wring their hands over the Empire as if it was extant today puzzle me. It is done, it is gone, and it isn't returning. I have no control over the actions of my ancestors, nor, of course, does anyone else, so why feel guilt about it?

Just as today's generation of young Germans are saying 'We had nothing to do with the Third Reich, and are a little tired of Germany being expected to apologise forever.', it is time to say 'Yes, we did have an Empire, yes, we did treat people savagely, yes we did enrich ourselves as a nation, but, that was in the past.'. Britain is never going to be an Imperial power again.

As a subject worthy of study, fine. As something we should be continually 'apologising' about, no. Time to move on.