What is the non-capitalist vision of the future?
- Thread starter TomUS
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes
SpineyNorman
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So long as I get to string up bankers, CEOs and right wingers I'll let someone else figure out all the tricky stuff.
toblerone3
Grrrrr
There is very little consensus on alternative visions. The main consensus is a reactive hatred of bankers, CEOs and right wingers. But even with regard to this I don't think that most people on Urban favour the death sentence.
Are you really interested or are you just looking for strawmen to knock down so you can say 'Ah, you see, this is no better than capitalism' and 'But the soviets would just run things for their own benefits' and 'Ah, your anarcho-syndicalism is irrevocably bound up with an outmoded and discredited behaviourist theory of desire-satisfaction'?
Brubricker
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Perhaps it's the rueful recognition that all societies will be at least quasi-capitalist with theocracies and some strongman dictatorships less so.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
well this is certainly a question I've never thought about.
The real and boring answer of course is to put systems in place to allow people to collectively work all these things out themselves. Not impose a economic and social model on people and then legitimate it through some system of voting or political representation.
I'm really interested. It's never really discussed here.
I am. I'd never heard of anarcho-syndicalism before you mentioned it. So, I looked it up. I recently read Ten days that shook the world & My disillusionment in Russia to get 2 views of the same events. In her book Goldman describes traveling around post revolutionary Russia & speaking with anarchist groups & how the Bolshivicks were wiping them out. But in that book she never really describes her philosophy.Um.
Ok, I give in. I can't tell if you're being serious or not.
Actually, seeing the billionaire elite dragged from their estates & strung up would be quite satisfying. But, the question is always put.....so what do you want to replace the current system with?
SpineyNorman
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I suppose my serious answer would be that it's not for me to decide - like Santino said, a just system can never be imposed from above. I suppose the aim is to extend democracy into the economic sphere so that people can decide for themselves, so it's difficult to really say what it would look like. That said, I like the sound of some of the parecon stuff and the recent articles by the IWCA (part 1, part 2) on economic democracy look good.
You could try this thread: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/347487-What-s-your-kind-of-revolution. Which was started all of, oh, two hours, before this very thread.
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
Naturally you wouldn't have heard of it if you aren't part of the International Left Wing Conspiracy, but in fact absolutely everyone who isn't a committed "free-market capitalist" has been signed up to a precise and comprehensive consensus programme to be put in place instantly on the occasion of capitalism's demise. This is because we all share absolutely identical political ideals that consist simply of eradicating capitalism and thus having an easy life.
All this has been well known in right wing circles for well over a century, though it's been kept secret by the left by the sneaky and underhand means of it not actually being even remotely true.
All this has been well known in right wing circles for well over a century, though it's been kept secret by the left by the sneaky and underhand means of it not actually being even remotely true.
Brubricker
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Clever. You had me wondering where you were going.
SpineyNorman
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We're agreed that we want to replace capitalism with something nicer but beyond that it gets a bit messy 
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
all that stuff with anarchists and trots, for example - the reason it isn't discussed on here is probably because people don't want to fall out with their mates for no good reason other than some abstract vision of the future when we are all in the same fight anyway. and which frequently they themselves haven't really worked out / thought about.
if you want to get hours of cringe inducing detail on the minutia of how a socialsit / anarchist revolution would work then go to somewhere like revleft, but here most people are luckily fairly well grounded in the real world
if you want to get hours of cringe inducing detail on the minutia of how a socialsit / anarchist revolution would work then go to somewhere like revleft, but here most people are luckily fairly well grounded in the real world
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Well, there are three questions that are linked:
Where is it that you would ideally like to get to?
How could you conceivably get from here to there?
And, finally, if you can't conceivably get from here to there, where would you like realistically to get to from here.
Considering all three questions has value, I think, as they inform each other, but I think it is important to be clear which of the three you are talking about at any given time.
Where is it that you would ideally like to get to?
How could you conceivably get from here to there?
And, finally, if you can't conceivably get from here to there, where would you like realistically to get to from here.
Considering all three questions has value, I think, as they inform each other, but I think it is important to be clear which of the three you are talking about at any given time.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
personally i'd prefer to see pretty much everything nationalised except for perhaps the odd shop - but even then, the working conditions of shop workers etc would be vastly different to how they are today. food etc would be free, peoples needs would be planned for democratically by the community with everyone having an imput into it, food and basic essentials would be free and hopefully as time went by so would everything else.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
paging the mono-thought clique
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
We're agreed that we want to replace capitalism with something nicer but beyond that it gets a bit messy
Speak for yourself. I want to replace capitalism with something messier but beyond that it gets a bit nice.
toblerone3
Grrrrr
I love the idea of a public sector running large areas of the economy and of life, but I don't think there is enough thought given as to how improve public sector management. As it stands large areas of public sector management are appalling if not practically corrupt. So bad as to make some people think that private sector profit motives might actually result in the economy being run better and fairer.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
massive lol.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Considering there are many forms of capitalism... I just want a system where capitalism is kept in it's place. Like a lovely nice fire in a fire-place being poked at with the poker of marginal social benefit and fed the wood of stuff that is not essential to human freedom or a sound overall environment.
A sort of fireplace capitalism then, warm and cozy, not the Arsonist kind where 3rd world children, rain-forests and social contracts between governments and the governed and the odd devastating war are cheerily flung in to make profits burn hotter. Or something.
A sort of fireplace capitalism then, warm and cozy, not the Arsonist kind where 3rd world children, rain-forests and social contracts between governments and the governed and the odd devastating war are cheerily flung in to make profits burn hotter. Or something.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
A future where communities get to decide their own direction.
SpineyNorman
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I'm not really sure I have enough faith in the masses to let them work out a political system for us all (should the chance arise). Most people know virtually nothing about politics and have little interest. I imagine that setting up a political system is a complicated thing. Even if people chose a simple society they would need to understand the more complicated systems first. And it would take a long time for everyone to become educated enough.
Capitalism with a human face.
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