bimble
floofy
Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons
Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.
Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons
Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk
I don’t think this counts.
Athos
Well-Known Member
In fairness, that study doesn't reliably support the conclusion in respect of which you've cited it. Essentially, it sets out some women's fears thar something is happening; it doesn't offer any evidence that it is actually happening.Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons
Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.
Better support for the idea that male prisoners are pretending to be trans would be the fact that so many prisoners who claim to be trans women are sex offenders.
Unless you believe that trans women are massively more likely than even cis men to be convicted of those crimes, that fact does suggest that sex offenders might be falsely claiming trans status.*
However, it's not clear whether that's so they can have access to vulnerable women to abuse, or for self-preservation.
Whilst that's something that shouldn't be dismissed, it isn't directly relevant to the bill; although it would've made getting a GRC easier, having one isn't determinative of whether or not a prisoner would be housed in the male or female estate.
That's because there's a specific exemption in the Equality Act 2010 to the general prohibition against discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment, with regard to services/public functions. And the prison service policy of making such decisions based on an assessment of risk on a case-by-case basis.
It would be more significant for, say, a woman's association where there is no such exemption which would allow it to exclude a trans woman with a GRC from its changing rooms. But then that's been the case for some time, seemingly with little problem. It is one of the SoS arguments for invoking s.35 that making it much easier to get a GRC would lead to problems in this area e.g. fraudulent claims, vulnerable (cis) women self- excluding from such associations, etc.
ETA: * This accords with the evidence of the British Psychological Society to the Women and Equalities Committee, which said:
"Conversely, psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:
- As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;
- As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);
- Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).
- In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.
Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend."
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bimble
floofy
Is this because, in your opinion, if any person felt a really strong visceral hatred for the gender stereotypes they've been dealt by birth, in whatever culture they live in, if a person felt really strongly how wrong they are & how they do not wish to or can't conform to them then they'd as a result be a trans person and not a cis person?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think Jennaonthebeach is saying that anyone who steps out of the cis line soon finds out how strong gender stereotypes are in society from the way they're treated.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Part of the issue might arise from the assumptions implicit in a trans/cis model. Whilst it's clear that some people are trans i.e. their gender identity is at odds with their biological sex, and that some people are cis i.e. their gender identity and biological sex align, the idea that anyone who isn't trans must be cis is flawed. Because there's lots of people who report not having a 'gender identity'* (something which nobody has been able to define in a coherent non-circular way) - they don't believe that (in their case at least) such a thing is intrinsic - they simply know they're, say, female because of their biology, and they understand that society attaches cultural aspects to that (gender). Lots of people reject the constraints of gender without being trans.
*Though I accept that some people probably do, but don't recognise it as such, because they see their state as a natural and neutral norm.
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
I thought cis just meant “not trans; not non-binary”.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I think Athos is suggesting either things are binary or they’re not. If they’re not, then isn’t trans/cis also a continuum?
I am absolutely no expert on these things, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis to me.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that's conceptually sound. Because the corollary would be that anyone who's not cis is trans. Which would mean that someone who doesn't have a 'gender identity' (such that they have no congruence between their sex and gender identity) but considers themself a woman based on their female biology is trans, which wouldn't make sense.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Agree it makes logical sense, it’s just not how I’ve seen the words used. The one non-binary person I know considers themself under the trans umbrella.
And cis is everyone else where there is no sex/gender conflict, regardless of subjective sense of gender identity being present or absent.
All of this may be in flux or vary among individuals obv.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
This theorising is way beyond my expertise. I’m happy just to show solidarity to people however they feel about their gender and sexuality.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Lots of cis people have a conflict between their sex and their gender, insofar as they accept their biology but not the baggage society attaches to that!
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
That’s a gender/personality clash.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, and in 99.9% of the time that's easy enough; it only becomes harder in those minority of edge cases e.g. women's prisons. And, even then, it ought to be navigable with empathy and good faith.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Is really not. Its a clash between biology and the socially constructed thing that is gender.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It’s been quite clear that trans organisations do not support people who have been convicted of sexual violence against women being held in the “women’s estate” of the prison system, and that it’s sensible to examine these on a case by case basis.
That works for me.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
No one has issues with gender expectations because they clash with their genitalia.
And I don’t care about the x,y axis stuff. You might reasonably expect some non-binary people to adopt a trans label and some to adopt a cis label. I’m told this isn’t the case so I accept it. It’s not my job to police anyone’s terminology.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Indeed. I was very much hoping this would be a thread about that issue, and not become another free-for-all on all matters trans related.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I think I'd take the case-by-case approach to trans women convicted of non-sex offences; I'd not be too bothered by the idea that trans women sex offenders - as a class - should be excluded from women's prisons (in the same way that men are excluded as a class), as long as that doesn't mean they're at risk in men's prisons; they need to be kept safe, too.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you're ever the optimist
Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons
Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.
Also trans people killed Diana. The Express, really?
This story is based on prison rumours and there is no evidence those rumours were true. They come from this study which interviewed cis women prisoners about their experiences of being in jail with trans women. It's an interesting read with a range of views but what comes across strongly is that trans women further into medical transition, or who were perceived to be more feminine, were accepted more readily - something that will come as no surprise to trans people.
So to answer your next post, it is cis society that pushes trans people towards gender stereotypes. Trans women in particular are expected to at least 'make an effort' to be accepted. Trans men who behave in a feminine way will not be believed to be authentic. Trans people who pass easily as their aquired gender will go through life relatively untouched and be accepted in their gender in most circumstances. Those who don't will face abuse, harassment and potential exclusion from single sex spaces. Incidentally this also applies to cis people who do not 'pass' as their sex assigned at birth, see the growing number of stories of cis women being harassed and accused of being men in single sex spaces for details.
Being trans has nothing to do with gender stereotypes, it is about a relationship to the body in most cases. Trans people frequently change their bodies, or hope to. Having breasts or a penis is not a gender stereotype. Julie Serano uses the phrase subconscious sex rather than gender identity which might be more useful in a lot of cases, although it doesn't account for cases where sex identity is more fluid or ambiguous which is why gender identity came to replace transsexual. But we've had this discussion before and you seem reluctant to accept what trans people tell you about their experiences of sex and gender in favour of your own theories, which is fine, but from a trans perspective completely at odds with the experience of being transgender.
Athos
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what society bases gender expectations on; they expect someone with a cock to act like a man.
Agree on the second bit. People can say what they want.
I think it probably would have been had the Bryson case not come up. And if it's true that Bryson is the first trans woman ever convicted of rape in Scotland then it's desperately unlucky timing for Sturgeon and trans people alike. Perhaps we are cursed by God. Feels like it at the moment.
There isn't any evidence this has ever happened and even if it did they would be unlikely to be successful. The vast majority of trans women are held in the male estate. People are only moved after extensive assessment, which includes type of offence committed and the degree of medical transition. And medical transition is not trivial. Even hormones have permanent effects. I find it difficult to believe a predatory man would happily take the same drugs used in chemical castration, or even have genital surgery, in an attempt to change the prison estate he was in, especially because that probably wouldn't work and he'd end up in segregation in the male estate - possibly in a block used as punishment for cis prisoners which is what often happens to trans people when they are segregated because there is no other provision.
I was not arguing that pronoun use should determine prison allocation. Not even assigned sex at birth guarantees prison placement, I don't know about Scotland but there is capacity in England and Wales for cis women to be held in the male estate if they are regarded as particularly dangerous.
Thank you smokedout for making the thread worth reading. There is not nearly enough space given to trans people to talk about their own experiences in the media and it's a shame that this is often replicated on here . Certainly it's more worthy of anyone's attention than posting links to the Express or ploughing grimly on with the prisons thing when it seems to me that this is a safeguarding question rather than one pertaining to making it easier to obtain documentation with one's correct identity.
Athos
Well-Known Member
The British Psychological Society gave evidence to say that it has happened (I linked to it at near top of the page).
Jennaonthebeach
If you say so
Jennaonthebeach
If you say so
I thought we already decided this prison stuff is completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
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