welfare state breakdown

[trevhagl]

has the welfare state completely broken down?
Met this geezer who was chucked off incapacity and given a ESA form to fill in. He was advised not to (as it's a stricter version of incapacity) and was helped to fill in a GL24. The nash wouldn't give him any money till they saw the GL24. He can't get a crisis loan because the phone is unmanned. he goes to the job centre to speed up his income support (reduced rate, don't wanna 'spoil' him!) and they tell him they won't help him - he MUST fill in the ESA form, which is downright LIES.

FFS!!!

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

and they tell him they won't help him - he MUST fill in the ESA form, which is downright LIES.

FFS!!!

Perhaps they just don't know how to do their job? Incometant jobsworths. Plenty of them around.

 

[Nigel]

According to Serwotka(PCS) recentely speaking much of this is being privatised, not allowing public sector to compete with them.

If they put more money into giving training, apprenticeships, boot camps, etc rather than subsidising benfit culture & care undustry disasterously run by private firms and agencies making a fortune out of taxpayers money the better for everyone invplved in this process.

 

[tbaldwin]

has the welfare state completely broken down?
Met this geezer who was chucked off incapacity and given a ESA form to fill in. He was advised not to (as it's a stricter version of incapacity) and was helped to fill in a GL24. The nash wouldn't give him any money till they saw the GL24. He can't get a crisis loan because the phone is unmanned. he goes to the job centre to speed up his income support (reduced rate, don't wanna 'spoil' him!) and they tell him they won't help him - he MUST fill in the ESA form, which is downright LIES.

FFS!!!

Half the people who work for the benefits agency dont really know what there doing a lot of the time. Its best if you ask to speak to a manager be as polite as possible but stick to your point. If its an appeal re IB ask them if theyve read the Disability discrimination act.

 

[Nigel]

At the moment in some Job Centres so I've been told you cannot even make a fresh claim or get a crisis loan using the phones in the Job Centre officially.

It is becoming more and more Kafkanesquely beaurocratic both for claimants and for Job centre staff.

 

[jonajuna]

perhaps he could get a job and stop living off my taxes?

there are very few illnesses/disabilities that prevent any work

 

[SpookyFrank]

perhaps he could get a job and stop living off my taxes?

there are very few illnesses/disabilities that prevent any work

You can be fit as a fiddle and strong as a bull and still unable to find work you know. For the eighty four quadrillionth time there is no full employment, because unemployment itself is a necessary component of the capitalist system; one that serves to keep wages low and profits high. If you have done well for yourself under capitalism you might do well to consider the taxes you pay towards the welfare state to be investment in the continuation of that system rather than a distasteful handout to those who would, perhaps by their own fault or perhaps not, be starving to death on the streets without it.

The welfare state serves two purposes; firstly to stop people dying in case they are needed later on to replace another troublesome peon elsewhere in the system; and secondly to demoralise, hassle and coerce the poor until they forget that they have a right to choose what they do for a living and to demand fair conditions of employment. The neoliberals wouldn't bother with a welfare state at all if they thought their sordid little racket could get by without it. Those dole checks you so lament shelling out for are not designed to help the poor, they are designed to preserve the hierarchy that makes them poor in the first place. Feel better now?

 

[jonajuna]

You can be fit as a fiddle and strong as a bull and still unable to find work you know. For the eighty four quadrillionth time there is no full employment, because unemployment itself is a necessary component of the capitalist system; one that serves to keep wages low and profits high. If you have done well for yourself under capitalism you might do well to consider the taxes you pay towards the welfare state to be investment in the continuation of that system rather than a distasteful handout to those who would, perhaps by their own fault or perhaps not, be starving to death on the streets without it.

The welfare state serves two purposes; firstly to stop people dying in case they are needed later on to replace another troublesome peon elsewhere in the system; and secondly to demoralise, hassle and coerce the poor until they forget that they have a right to choose what they do for a living and to demand fair conditions of employment. The neoliberals wouldn't bother with a welfare state at all if they thought their sordid little racket could get by without it. Those dole checks you so lament shelling out for are not designed to help the poor, they are designed to preserve the hierarchy that makes them poor in the first place. Feel better now?

not really

im not rich, im a nursey in the public sector. the only time i was ever unemployed was through choice, in my teens, when i was lazy.

the point of esa is to get people off the sick and into work. there clearly is work here as we are still one of the most attractive countries in European for migrant workers

surely people wouldn't come here to not work?

any job has to be better than no job

and if you are capable of working, you should

fucking hate these "aint my fault i aint got no work, its my right to have benefits"

yeah? well know what? it my right to call you a lazy fcuk for living off the taxes i pay thorugh earning the money i work for

smoke that in your neolazyarse pipe

 

[SpookyFrank]

the point of esa is to get people off the sick and into work.

Indeed it is. But there are some people on the sick who are (this just in) actually sick.

any job has to be better than no job

Where does that logic end? Absolutely anything that anyone anywhere is willing to pay someone to do is unquestionably better than them sitting at home on the dole? Hitman? Prostitute? Chartered accountant? are these things really better than claiming benefits?

and if you are capable of working, you should

Define capable? Say you have a heart condition. You experience chronic chest pain on a daily basis. You find simple exertions like moving around your own home leave you tired and sore. You are offered a job at McDonalds. On your feet for eight hour shifts, rushing back and forth fetching orders and preparing food. The duty manager is watching you like a hawk, ready to deploy some imaginary legal black hole called a 'probationary period' at a moment's notice and throw you out on your arse, leaving you unemployed and with a good six weeks before you recieve any unemployment benefits at all. Your job causes you unbearable pain and increases your heart rate to levels your doctor warned you about, but you can just about get it done. You can't help but notice that the only real product of your excruciating labour is that you are assisting fat people in their quest to grow fatter and increase their already considerable burden upon the (taxpayer funded) NHS*. Nevertheless, to the casual observer (provided that the casual observer is the most callous bastard imaginable) you are capable of doing that job. The burgers get served. In your first day alone you moved a couple of months closer to death, but the burgers get served. You can feel your once keen mind growing duller with every second of hateful drudgery that passes, but you keep at it. You are capable, you are contributing to the majesty of civilisation. And if you could please hurry up and die before your first six months are up, that'd save the nice people at McDonalds the trouble of sacking you before they have to give you holiday pay. Have a nice day.

fucking hate these "aint my fault i aint got no work, its my right to have benefits"

Well I hope you never lose your job. No, that's a lie, I hope you do. I hope you get a glimpse some day of the fact that it is not always possible to be the master of one's own destiny in our society. People are chewed up and spat out by the labour market on a regular basis and it's not fair to judge a person based on what that same crooked and uncaring market thinks of them.

*Notice how sometimes things affect each other in ways that aren't that easy to characterise with soundbites and recycled bigotry? Do you see how that works?

 

[jonajuna]

Indeed it is. But there are some people on the sick who are (this just in) actually sick.

a few are sure, but id wager that many if not most of the c3000000 (or approx 9% of working age adults) that are on IB could do at least some part time work. plenty of evidence to show that a meaningful activity improves health and social function.

also, most ill health is fairly shortlived, so the claimants would be on the sick not IB

Where does that logic end? Absolutely anything that anyone anywhere is willing to pay someone to do is unquestionably better than them sitting at home on the dole? Hitman? Prostitute? Chartered accountant? are these things really better than claiming benefits?

the first 2 are illegal so thus not really classifiable as employment, they certainly are not subject to PAYE, the 3rd pays rather quite well so i understand. the argument you present is a tad extreme in its extension of logic, there are plenty of other jobs out there.. maybe not that attractive, but id rather shovel shit (to be equally as extreme) than to be unemployed for in excess of 6 months (qualifying period for IB)

Define capable? Say you have a heart condition. You experience chronic chest pain on a daily basis. You find simple exertions like moving around your own home leave you tired and sore. You are offered a job at McDonalds. On your feet for eight hour shifts, rushing back and forth fetching orders and preparing food. The duty manager is watching you like a hawk, ready to deploy some imaginary legal black hole called a 'probationary period' at a moment's notice and throw you out on your arse, leaving you unemployed and with a good six weeks before you recieve any unemployment benefits at all. Your job causes you unbearable pain and increases your heart rate to levels your doctor warned you about, but you can just about get it done. You can't help but notice that the only real product of your excruciating labour is that you are assisting fat people in their quest to grow fatter and increase their already considerable burden upon the (taxpayer funded) NHS*. Nevertheless, to the casual observer (provided that the casual observer is the most callous bastard imaginable) you are capable of doing that job. The burgers get served. In your first day alone you moved a couple of months closer to death, but the burgers get served. You can feel your once keen mind growing duller with every second of hateful drudgery that passes, but you keep at it. You are capable, you are contributing to the majesty of civilisation. And if you could please hurry up and die before your first six months are up, that'd save the nice people at McDonalds the trouble of sacking you before they have to give you holiday pay. Have a nice day.

the reason they pay doctors so much (and it will be them assessing work capabilities) is because they are skilled in making such assessments

oh and me, i also do medical reports for IB, i suspect i will continue to do so for ESA. if i have good clinical reason to support someone claim, i cite that reason. if i do not have that clinical evidence, i dont

Well I hope you never lose your job. No, that's a lie, I hope you do. I hope you get a glimpse some day of the fact that it is not always possible to be the master of one's own destiny in our society. People are chewed up and spat out by the labour market on a regular basis and it's not fair to judge a person based on what that same crooked and uncaring market thinks of them.

oh, the evil "them"? the labour market as you call it, isn't there to "care" per se, its there to pay people money in return for their labour. why is it so many people on here struggle with that concept?

if people dont pull their weight, they get dismissed, simple as. no one owes you or anyone else anything. the welfare state is their to help people in temporary need, not permanent "cant be botheredness". those that genuinely cannot work or indeed ar dying, will continue to get state benefits, and rightly so.

those that can get up off their fat lazy arses, should do so and pay for their own keep

*Notice how sometimes things affect each other in ways that aren't that easy to characterise with soundbites and recycled bigotry? Do you see how that works?

no not really, i dont see your point. but i do know that every day all of us move closer to death, thats life im afriad. even more of a bitch is that i am paying into a pension that the goal posts keep moving on, already i have 12 years added to my working life before pensionable age, im 40 in a few months

as for being sick and incapable, been there, off work for 4 months with a mental health issue. i was certifed sick by gp, paid sick pay by my employer (at this point i had given 17 years service so had earnt that benefit of my employment) did everything i could (which for a while was hard.. even getting to the docs for my ssri and to occupational health for theraping) to get back to health....

see thats your job when you are unemployed.. to find work.... anyone that puts in a full working week to finding employment is likely to find employment (untill all of those off work do the same, then i'll understand people being out of work (i do understand that those people post 50 finding work becomes much more difficult, but it can still be done))

if you are ill, your job is to do everything within your power to get well. far too much comfort in our culture to remain in the sick role.

as for the burden on the NHS of fat people, smokers drug users and those simply dying throw being alive.. or come to that those being born! thats part of our welfare state system that is there for all without payment or prequalifying conditions... a great social institution, even with its failings.. hence my 20 years service within it


e2a, it must take a real special person to wish ill on others, no matter how much we disagree with their opinions. im glad im not special

 

[SpookyFrank]

e2a, it must take a real special person to wish ill on others, no matter how much we disagree with their opinions. im glad im not special

Maybe I would wish a minor and transient misfortune upon you, but only so that you might gain sufficient perspective to abandon your inexplicable hatred of those unfortunate individuals whose services society does not, at present, require. Individuals is the key word there, every benefit claimant is different, just like every worker. Some are lazy, some are sick, some have mental health problems, some got kicked out of school, some have criminal records, some live in parts of the country where there simply isn't enough work to go round. And yet you seem to be genuinely angry with each and every one of them. That can't be good for your blood pressure in the long run.

the reason they pay doctors so much (and it will be them assessing work capabilities) is because they are skilled in making such assessments

All very well except for the fact that it is politcians, not doctors, who make the rules. Politicians have already decided how many people are scamming and must be forcibly ejected from IB or whatever they're calling it this week; do you think they had doctors go round and check how many people weren't really sick before they made that decision? Or did they let the tabloids and their own balance sheets decide instead?

 

[Stoat Boy]

To be fair it must be easier for somebody who is able bodied and so on to just go and get any job they can rather than go through all that hassle ?

I know I would have to be starving before I put myself through that and whilst its sickening to see what has become of the Welfare state I do wonder if it could not be streamlined, if only in terms of the benefits available and the categories that they fall under.

 

[jonajuna]

Maybe I would wish a minor and transient misfortune upon you, but only so that you might gain sufficient perspective to abandon your inexplicable hatred of those unfortunate individuals whose services society does not, at present, require. Individuals is the key word there, every benefit claimant is different, just like every worker. Some are lazy, some are sick, some have mental health problems, some got kicked out of school, some have criminal records, some live in parts of the country where there simply isn't enough work to go round. And yet you seem to be genuinely angry with each and every one of them. That can't be good for your blood pressure in the long run.

i dont hate the individuals, i hate the belief that somehow many of them believe they are entitled to sit on the dole/sick/ib.

i agree that each person has their individual case to be looked at, it will be along process but little different to the process now of IB reviews every so often. the difference is, instead of saying "you cant work because of X Y Z" the emphasis will be, "ok you have X Y Z, what work can you do with those issues".

i know (both personally and through my years working in the NHS in mental health, my wife in community learning difficulties services) that there are many jobs people with health problems can do, even people with apparent severe disabilities.. even blunkett found a job, and he literally is blind as well as stupid!

All very well except for the fact that it is politcians, not doctors, who make the rules. Politicians have already decided how many people are scamming and must be forcibly ejected from IB or whatever they're calling it this week; do you think they had doctors go round and check how many people weren't really sick before they made that decision? Or did they let the tabloids and their own balance sheets decide instead?

it wil remain the doctors and other healthcare staff (such as myself, i have never had a client removed from IB when i have supported their application or review.. i have even got people back on it when they had been reviewed and not told me first (so i couldnt support in the first instance).

i am not (and i am sure not the government either.. certainly no doctors) suggesting that those in genuine need that cannot gain suitable and achievable employment should be cast to the wolves, of course not, we are meant to be a civilised country that seeks to support those most vulnerable amongst our community... BUT, whether you believe it to be tabloidesque or not, there are a large proportion of people in that 3 million on IB that can and should work.

at least that is my belief and to an extent observation.

with regards unemployment and jobs. i do need to concede on the point. ive just been (while writing this post) to the ONS site

figures are(rounded):

3 000 000 IB
2 400 000 unemployed (of whom)
1 600 000 claiming JSA

430 000 vacancies (as advertised in JCP)

2 400 000 employed non uk nationals


i am not inferring that those non uk nationals should not be here working (before anyone calls me nick again) what i will say id that 2.4 million people have come to this country and found work..... add that "previous market" to the current 430 000 (advertised in JCP) vacancies and you have apotential of 2 830 000 jobs. so no real shortage of jobs for the actaul permanent population

in fact just shy of 1/2 million vacancies for those on IB that could work. non uk nationals tend to be transient workers and after a period of working will return to country of origin (please correct me if i am wrong. its also my understanding that a similar figure of uk nationals migrate out of the uk each year as come in?).

the jobs are there, even if many are temporarily filled, theres either some laziness or pickiness for id guess half of those not working in some capacity (haven't factored those classed as unemployed above that are in some other non economic activity). not all, so as you say, some cannot find work, but there is for many


anyways, all this aside, i think (and its my opinion ) ESA model is better than the existing one as it shifts the emphasis towards work rather than towards sickness. even at a most basic social health model that's preferable

 

[ericjarvis]

perhaps he could get a job and stop living off my taxes?

there are very few illnesses/disabilities that prevent any work

I'm on benefit. Living off my own taxes thank you very much. I could stay on benefit another two years and I'd still not have cost you, or anyone else, one single penny, you short sighted self righteous self centred twat.

 

[jonajuna]

I'm on benefit. Living off my own taxes thank you very much. I could stay on benefit another two years and I'd still not have cost you, or anyone else, one single penny, you short sighted self righteous self centred twat.

unless you earn really quite a lot, most of us (ie on average or below wages) pay in about the same we take out when you consider what we cost the state over our lives

if you were to pay privately, you'd be looking at £10k just to be born (antenatal and post natal care as well as actual delivery)

£50k for your primary and secondary education

£40 for your higher ed (assuming 16-21yo)

so already we cost £100k before we even start earning

average wage is £25k at 25% deductions = £6k per year in tax and NI

so if we leave education and start work at 21, we are 37 before the public purse starts to profit from us

of course that's assuming we dont do anything daft like crash a motorbike and have to have our arses scrubbed of the road rash, break any bones playing sport. didn't have free school meals as parents on low income etc etc

but assuming we dont, we then have (at the age we are now.. 37) 30 years taxation left in us or £180k, but of course, our health is waning, we are now prescription charge exempt so in addition to seeing the doc more often, we are getting more meds more often at higher cost with less contribution

then your hip goes another £10k out of your pot, you need bypass surgery another £20k

you see where i am going with this? (simplistic yes but)

and all this is assuming average wage, we already know that over 5 million are unemployed or on IB.. in total over 20% of the adults of working age in this country don't pay into income tax and NI

you may well have paid in disproportionately to the national average, but don't think you have tax in reserve, its been spent already on those who haven't paid what they have cost

my specs (which i dont get any NHS subsidy on) rectify my myopia


if you do earn significantly higher then the average wage, i would shout too loudly, the proletariat here will seize your property (as owning its theft anyway)

 

[jonajuna]

hiya again eric

Fuck off. It's my money I'm claiming back. I could be on benefit for another year or two and I'd still be a net contributor. I'll go back to work when I choose, and until then you have NO right to criticise since it's my own taxes I'm spending.

Personally I'm a parasite off my own bloody taxes. I could be on benefit for a few years yet and still be a net contributor. So I seriously resent anyone trying to claim I'm living off their taxes. As far as I'm concerned claiming my taxes are their taxes isn't much different from stealing. So they are all a bunch of thieves.

fond of saying the same thing.. i guess that's an attribute from your parliamentary days?

dont understand this concept of support for the welfare state but your taxes are only your taxes and only you can claim them...... so whose taxes pays for al the other people who claim benefits but haven't paid taxes?

must be just mine i guess as your taxes are only your taxes and no one else is allowed to touch them...... mmmmmmmm

Last I calculated it, I am owed a tad over thirteen grand, I owe just over five grand. Guess which debts will end up being paid.

don't you have to declare all assets over £8k and then you are not entitled to any benefits? not defrauding the state benefit system are we?

Me too, got to go get my repeat prescriptions. Again.

ah.. i guess you are off work on the sick.. no hang on you cant be off sick as you are

go{ing} back to work when I choose,

and of course you couldn't be off sick nor actually unemployed as that would mean you are seeking a job, not out riding your bicycle.. and of course if too sick to work, too sick to ride a bike...

I prefer them. {drop handlebars on bikes that is} IMO necessary if one is going any real distance. It should be possible to use the brakes while on the drops, if not then surely you've got the brake levers set wrong.

as an ex parliamentarian, you really should be more careful what you say in public, in writing, on the internet

 

[trevhagl]

perhaps he could get a job and stop living off my taxes?

there are very few illnesses/disabilities that prevent any work

OK Tory boy, can he come to work for you? He admits to being violent , but i am sure you don't mind, as long as he's not scrounging your hard earned taxes

 

[trevhagl]

a few are sure, but id wager that many if not most of the c3000000 (or approx 9% of working age adults) that are on IB could do at least some part time work. plenty of evidence to show that a meaningful activity improves health and social function.

also, most ill health is fairly shortlived, so the claimants would be on the sick not IB





the first 2 are illegal so thus not really classifiable as employment, they certainly are not subject to PAYE, the 3rd pays rather quite well so i understand. the argument you present is a tad extreme in its extension of logic, there are plenty of other jobs out there.. maybe not that attractive, but id rather shovel shit (to be equally as extreme) than to be unemployed for in excess of 6 months (qualifying period for IB)




the reason they pay doctors so much (and it will be them assessing work capabilities) is because they are skilled in making such assessments

oh and me, i also do medical reports for IB, i suspect i will continue to do so for ESA. if i have good clinical reason to support someone claim, i cite that reason. if i do not have that clinical evidence, i dont



oh, the evil "them"? the labour market as you call it, isn't there to "care" per se, its there to pay people money in return for their labour. why is it so many people on here struggle with that concept?

if people dont pull their weight, they get dismissed, simple as. no one owes you or anyone else anything. the welfare state is their to help people in temporary need, not permanent "cant be botheredness". those that genuinely cannot work or indeed ar dying, will continue to get state benefits, and rightly so.

those that can get up off their fat lazy arses, should do so and pay for their own keep



no not really, i dont see your point. but i do know that every day all of us move closer to death, thats life im afriad. even more of a bitch is that i am paying into a pension that the goal posts keep moving on, already i have 12 years added to my working life before pensionable age, im 40 in a few months

as for being sick and incapable, been there, off work for 4 months with a mental health issue. i was certifed sick by gp, paid sick pay by my employer (at this point i had given 17 years service so had earnt that benefit of my employment) did everything i could (which for a while was hard.. even getting to the docs for my ssri and to occupational health for theraping) to get back to health....

see thats your job when you are unemployed.. to find work.... anyone that puts in a full working week to finding employment is likely to find employment (untill all of those off work do the same, then i'll understand people being out of work (i do understand that those people post 50 finding work becomes much more difficult, but it can still be done))

if you are ill, your job is to do everything within your power to get well. far too much comfort in our culture to remain in the sick role.

as for the burden on the NHS of fat people, smokers drug users and those simply dying throw being alive.. or come to that those being born! thats part of our welfare state system that is there for all without payment or prequalifying conditions... a great social institution, even with its failings.. hence my 20 years service within it


e2a, it must take a real special person to wish ill on others, no matter how much we disagree with their opinions. im glad im not special

and judging from the size of your posts YOU don't do any work anyway, so aren't you scrounging from YOUR company?

 

[jonajuna]

OK Tory boy, can he come to work for you? He admits to being violent , but i am sure you don't mind, as long as he's not scrounging your hard earned taxes

eh? so he is unemployable due to being violent and expects the rest of us to pay for his keep cause he cant keep his temper in check

he is either mentally ill in which case requires medicating to control his agression.. this i aceept will preclude him in most cases from work.

or he is just violent in which case grow up, sort your temper and get a job... or carry on being violent and go to jail, do not pass go do not claim any more benefits

 

[jonajuna]

and judging from the size of your posts YOU don't do any work anyway, so aren't you scrounging from YOUR company?

check the time stamps, i work predominately between 9-5 mon - fri

BUT saying that, although that is my contracted hours. i currently have in excess of 25 hours time owing. or over 3 days. becuase of working into the evenings, starting very early in the morning, putting in hours at weekends.. working from hom late evenings on occassion.... even if i was to skive an hour a day during office hours, i would still be putting in over my contracted 37 hours.


all non work related interweb use is "quota'd" its logged and you are time limited with the company locking you off the web once you exceed your allocation

so no, i am not scroungning off my comapny... they still owe me hours

in addition, the "company" is not paying me the going rate for my responsibiltiies and qualifications.. yes i could change jobs, but i like my job, to do the same job for more money would also mean moving locality.. i like where i live

a bitch of a situation but one i have chosen to live with

btw, if you had read any of my posts, you would relaise i have never voted tory in my life and have always worked for the public sector. in a job that is traditionally female so therefore subject to the sexism that stil lexists in the marketplace meaning i am paid substanitally less than if i was a copper or other male domintaed professional with same experience, qualifications and responsibility

e2a, i do type farily fast too, sure that leaves some typos, but hey

 

[In Bloom]

plenty of evidence to show that a meaningful activity improves health and social function.

In some cases, yes. But what does that have to do with work?

The fact is that some people, while able to get through their day to day life without too much difficulty (most of the time) would find it very hard to hold down a job in the long term. Some disabilities, for instance, allow sufferers to function perfectly fine some of the time but can leave them knackered or in severe pain at other times, theoretically they could get a job, they wouldn't keep it for long if they were going off sick all the time.

Also, your moralising about "your" taxes only makes sense if:

• Everybody on IB has been on benefits their entire life despite being able to work and;
• You assume (wrongly) that paying taxes out of a waged job is the only way to contribute meaningfully to society.

 

[jonajuna]

In some cases, yes. But what does that have to do with work?

The fact is that some people, while able to get through their day to day life without too much difficulty (most of the time) would find it very hard to hold down a job in the long term. Some disabilities, for instance, allow sufferers to function perfectly fine some of the time but can leave them knackered or in severe pain at other times, theoretically they could get a job, they wouldn't keep it for long if they were going off sick all the time.

there are plenty of inclusive employment programmes popping up across the country that enable those who cannot do a full work in standard format to have employment.

but they are needed for a few, the majority would be able to work and fully support themselves. i have met people that are wheelchairbound that work hard and earn more than me and pay more taxes than me

work doesnt mean grafting on a building site, there are desk jobs, phone jobs, IT jobs, talking jobs

look at blunkett i mentioned earlier.. completely blind (as far as i know) one of the most work disabling physical problems there is yet he has keopt work going

Also, your moralising about "your" taxes only makes sense if:

• Everybody on IB has been on benefits their entire life despite being able to work and;
• You assume (wrongly) that paying taxes out of a waged job is the only way to contribute meaningfully to society.

a: no it doesnt, ive already given an example of how much we "cost" throughout our lives.. the welfare system is there to propr people up in times of need.. rightly so, i will not begrudge anyone who is acutely ill, chronically ill and UNABLE to work or is unfortunate enough to find themselves "between jobs" from claiming benefits.. that of course is their right and i happily pay into the system that enables that

what i am saying is that there is no way on this planet that just short of 10% of the working age population of this coutry are "too ill to work"

if that is the case, then we are truely fucked as a species, shoudl have died out years ago under the natural order of things

b: its the only way to financially contribute to this society

i ahev no problem with voluntary work and of course support the choice of anyone to be a home builder (housewife/husband) as long as they are either able to finance their own life or have a life partner that is financing the family


got to go know, i am at work now, my first appt dna so had a minute or two of thumb fiddling.. but i do have admin to catch up on..... wouldnt want someoen to assume that i am stealing from the public purse

 

[In Bloom]

there are plenty of inclusive employment programmes popping up across the country that enable those who cannot do a full work in standard format to have employment.

There are some, but they're few and far between, not to mention usually pretty crap at meeting the needs of a lot of people.

but they are needed for a few, the majority would be able to work and fully support themselves. i have met people that are wheelchairbound that work hard and earn more than me and pay more taxes than me

work doesnt mean grafting on a building site, there are desk jobs, phone jobs, IT jobs, talking jobs

look at blunkett i mentioned earlier.. completely blind (as far as i know) one of the most work disabling physical problems there is yet he has keopt work going

Disability doesn't just mean being wheelchair bound or being blind (which are actually easier to get around in terms of employment than less visible and/or more complex disabilities)

no it doesnt, ive already given an example of how much we "cost" throughout our lives.. the welfare system is there to propr people up in times of need.. rightly so, i will not begrudge anyone who is acutely ill, chronically ill and UNABLE to work or is unfortunate enough to find themselves "between jobs" from claiming benefits.. that of course is their right and i happily pay into the system that enables that

what i am saying is that there is no way on this planet that just short of 10% of the working age population of this coutry are "too ill to work"

if that is the case, then we are truely fucked as a species, shoudl have died out years ago under the natural order of things

So your argument is basically based on your own ignorance and incredulity then. I really hope you apply a better level of rigour to your work, for your patients sakes.

i ahev no problem with voluntary work and of course support the choice of anyone to be a home builder (housewife/husband) as long as they are either able to finance their own life or have a life partner that is financing the family

And those single parents who cannot finance themselves and have to be at home to care for their children? Should they face a choice between neglecting their kids or seeing their family starve on the streets?

 

[SpookyFrank]

i am not inferring that those non uk nationals should not be here working (before anyone calls me nick again) what i will say id that 2.4 million people have come to this country and found work..... add that "previous market" to the current 430 000 (advertised in JCP) vacancies and you have apotential of 2 830 000 jobs. so no real shortage of jobs for the actaul permanent population

Firstly, you imply, I infer. Secondly you're full of shit. What good is a 'previous market' to anyone exactly? Why not just suggest that the unemployed get on the next steamer for the colonies to seek their fortune? I really don't understand what you mean when you say there are 2,400,000 unemployed, 430,000 vacancies and no shortage of jobs. And lets not forget that every person you kick off of IB is another person who is going to be topping up the dole claimant count and fighting with all the other people for a handful of jobs.

And let's not forget that 'a job' doesn't necessarily mean a good job, or a full time job or a long term job. If you're claiming JSA and you're offered some agency work it's unlikely to escape your notice that there will be no guarantee of how many hours you will get and so no guaranteed income. You will also be aware that if you sign off JSA and then lose your new job you might be waiting up to six weeks to restart your JSA claim, and with only two weeks' part time wages to live on in the meantime. When we create what you seem so keen on, ie a situation where nobody is allowed to turn down an offer of work, we create a situation where employers can treat staff just however the fuck they like and know that the workers won't have any choice but to put up with it. And even if all 430,000 vacancies were filled tomorow morning, the fact remains that two million people, or five million if you count IB claimants, will still be out of work. When there's no vacancies left anywhere would you finally accept the fact that it is possible to be unemployed without choosing to be unemployed?

 

[glenquagmire]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/sep/22/jobcentre-selly-oak-unemployment

 

[jonajuna]

There are some, but they're few and far between, not to mention usually pretty crap at meeting the needs of a lot of people.

those orgs ive worked in conjunction with have proved to be great value to the clients i have refferred in. guess our experiences of those org types are different

Disability doesn't just mean being wheelchair bound or being blind (which are actually easier to get around in terms of employment than less visible and/or more complex disabilities)

agreed, hence the system employing medics and specialised health professional to assess those individuals and if their condition warrants, support ehm staying on benefits

i have never advocated forcing people into work that are not able to work... but at this moment in time, there is poor assessment process to weed out the blaggers from the genuine

So your argument is basically based on your own ignorance and incredulity then. I really hope you apply a better level of rigour to your work, for your patients sakes.

and yours is similarly based on yours.....

i work with the chronically unemployed and long term sick... some of them are not able to work... i go out of my way to ensure they can access the benefits that are in place to support these people.... i dont do anything to support people staying on benefits wwho can work

with eh group i have worked with over the years... many can work, in fact most do work.. bleedin hard.. being opiate dependant (without a script) is a 23hr a day job

you basis for argument is that all those that say "i am unable to work cause i am ill, have bad back, dodgy knees, too worried" are genuine and/or actually of the level of disfunction they state or believe

sure you are aware of the investment going into CBT and the DWP? sometimes ( a lot of the time?) it isnt a physical or actual barrier, its a belief issue

And those single parents who cannot finance themselves and have to be at home to care for their children? Should they face a choice between neglecting their kids or seeing their family starve on the streets?

thousands of single parents do not consider it neglectful to place their children in childcare so they can go to work. why should some work hard and juggle all the balls when others sit watching jeremy kyle?

if you make the decision to become a parent, then you take the responsibility for providing for your kids

if you have been widowed, i am very sorry for that. i pay huge amounts of my pay towards life assurance and endowments (althoguh the latter are probably fucked). if i am to die, my families level of income would not be dramatically effected for the remainder of the time my kids are dependant (plus the mortgage would be paid off)

people have to accept that the responsibility for thier lives and the lives of their dependants is firmly thier own responsibility

the welfare system is there as a back up, not a holiday payment plan.

i will not apologise for holding the belief that people should do anything and everything (that is legal) to support themselves. i do support the system that provides for those that are UNABLE (not choosing but actually unable) to provide for themselves.

 

[jonajuna]

Firstly, you imply, I infer. Secondly you're full of shit. What good is a 'previous market' to anyone exactly? Why not just suggest that the unemployed get on the next steamer for the colonies to seek their fortune? I really don't understand what you mean when you say there are 2,400,000 unemployed, 430,000 vacancies and no shortage of jobs. And lets not forget that every person you kick off of IB is another person who is going to be topping up the dole claimant count and fighting with all the other people for a handful of jobs.

And let's not forget that 'a job' doesn't necessarily mean a good job, or a full time job or a long term job. If you're claiming JSA and you're offered some agency work it's unlikely to escape your notice that there will be no guarantee of how many hours you will get and so no guaranteed income. You will also be aware that if you sign off JSA and then lose your new job you might be waiting up to six weeks to restart your JSA claim, and with only two weeks' part time wages to live on in the meantime. When we create what you seem so keen on, ie a situation where nobody is allowed to turn down an offer of work, we create a situation where employers can treat staff just however the fuck they like and know that the workers won't have any choice but to put up with it. And even if all 430,000 vacancies were filled tomorow morning, the fact remains that two million people, or five million if you count IB claimants, will still be out of work. When there's no vacancies left anywhere would you finally accept the fact that it is possible to be unemployed without choosing to be unemployed?

freedom of economic movement is one of the main points of the EU is it not?

but yes, when there are no jobs left, i will accept the terrible situation that some people wil remain unemployed


thank you for the grammar lesson

 

[SpookyFrank]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/sep/22/jobcentre-selly-oak-unemployment

A good article that. Plenty of stuff is skimmed over but it captures the gloominess of it all rather well. There's so much sales work these days, whatever the fuck that is; so many call centres and nonspecific minimum wage drudgery. It's so fucking hard to find something to do that involves actually getting something done

 

[In Bloom]

those orgs ive worked in conjunction with have proved to be great value to the clients i have refferred in. guess our experiences of those org types are different

Clearly. I work with people with learning disabilities and I've found that even where they do want to work and are able to do so, many businesses regard them as basically being too much hassle to bother with employing.

agreed, hence the system employing medics and specialised health professional to assess those individuals and if their condition warrants, support ehm staying on benefits

i have never advocated forcing people into work that are not able to work... but at this moment in time, there is poor assessment process to weed out the blaggers from the genuine

Contrary to popular belief, it's not actually that easy to claim benefits these days, particularly IB. DWP doctors are not well known for their capacity for empath or their listening skills.

and yours is similarly based on yours.....

How so?

you basis for argument is that all those that say "i am unable to work cause i am ill, have bad back, dodgy knees, too worried" are genuine and/or actually of the level of disfunction they state or believe

Not all, no. But I'd rather give people with a doctors note the benefit of the doubt than have the system we're moving towards now, where sick people are actively hassled and berated for not being in work.

thousands of single parents do not consider it neglectful to place their children in childcare so they can go to work. why should some work hard and juggle all the balls when others sit watching jeremy kyle?

Not everybody has access to appropriate childcare. It's not easy to afford chldcare for a child under 3 if you've no family to help out and the only job you can find is stacking shelves 16 hours a week in Asda, which is the experience of many single parents round my way.

if you make the decision to become a parent, then you take the responsibility for providing for your kids

Not everybody is able to provide for their kids financially without help though. They are still providing an important contribution to society by raising their kids (sprogs making it to adulthood being a necessity if human society is to carry on existing and all).

Child rearing is not an individual act, it's the responsibility of society as a whole.

 

[Blagsta]

perhaps he could get a job and stop living off my taxes?

there are very few illnesses/disabilities that prevent any work

Your clients must hate you.