Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[Thomsy]

Would you judge those local Muslims to have been inspired by Islamic doctrine?

Unquestionably they believe they are inspired by Islamic doctrine - specifically the doctrine that dhimma (subordinate non-Muslims) are forbidden to erect new places of worship or even to repair old ones that have become dilapidated.

More generally, they are inspired by the supremacist notions which underpin the Islamic law on minorities. To give a couple of additional examples:

Most churches and monasteries in Egypt have had a mosque build adjacent or directly opposite. (There are exceptions, particularly in Cairo, but it is the general tendency in Middle and Upper Egypt where most Coptic Christians live.) The purpose is explicitly to assert the supremacy of the mosque over the church and to ensure that the call to Muslim prayer can be broadcast loudly from the loud-speakers of the mosque directly over the church.

A common feature of attacks on churches is that Muslims will use firearms to shoot at the crosses above the dome or towers of the church. The contention is that the Copts are showing arrogance and contempt of Islam by raising their crosses high.

 

[belboid]

She's the head of rape robbery and vice in Oslo, her data is used in UNHCR reports, and her statements were made to the media personally. Why would she lie and if she was don't you think there would be a huge scandal that rippled through Brussels across the planet by now??

What has Brussels to do with anything? Do you know where Oslo is? Or what the UNHCR is? Silly boy, that's where trying to look authoritative based on a quickl google gets you, deeper in that hole.

 

[Random]

'On street rapes' are a very small fraction of total rapes. How many are we talking about here? Five? In a given year it's quite possible for all of them that the police know about to be committed by 'non-residents'. I blame the Danish.

 

[belboid]

blimey, so pk again is cherry picking on one particular crime and determining that it is the only one that matters because (according to one copper) it fits his argument??!! Surely not, that be a wholly dishonest and bigotted way of making an argument.

 

[pk]

Expand your fascism theory pk.

Well there's that whole apostasy = death thing. Infidelity = death. Insulting the prophet = death. Refusal to marry arranged partner = death (an 'honourable' death perhaps). Mainly for women, that one. Or girls.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well there's that whole apostasy = death thing. Infidelity = death. Insulting the prophet = death. Refusal to marry arranged partner = death (an 'honourable' death perhaps). Mainly for women, that one. Or girls.

no, "expand your fascism theory", not "post up some old bollocks".

 

[pk]

What has Brussels to do with anything? Do you know where Oslo is? Or what the UNHCR is? Silly boy, that's where trying to look authoritative based on a quickl google gets you, deeper in that hole.

Silly me I thought Norway was an EU member state.

 

[belboid]

aah yes, i recall Hitler regularly going on about apostasy

 

[Proper Tidy]

Well there's that whole apostasy = death thing. Infidelity = death. Insulting the prophet = death. Refusal to marry arranged partner = death (an 'honourable' death perhaps). Mainly for women, that one. Or girls.

Dictionary definition of fascism there pk, well done.

I bet you called your teachers fascists. Mum, you fascist! I want nuggets and chips you nazi bitch.

 

[pk]

'On street rapes' are a very small fraction of total rapes. How many are we talking about here? Five? In a given year it's quite possible for all of them that the police know about to be committed by 'non-residents'. I blame the Danish.

Clearly you failed to watch the video interview I linked to several times. Read the thread?

 

[belboid]

Silly me I thought Norway was an EU member state.

so you don't know much about Norway or the UNHCR either, then

 

[Pickman's model]

no, "expand your fascism theory", not "post up some old bollocks".

Dictionary definition of fascism there pk, well done.

I bet you called your teachers fascists. Mum, you fascist! I want nuggets and chips you nazi bitch.

 

[IMR]

Unquestionably they believe they are inspired by Islamic doctrine - specifically the doctrine that dhimma (subordinate non-Muslims) are forbidden to erect new places of worship or even to repair old ones that have become dilapidated.

More generally, they are inspired by the supremacist notions which underpin the Islamic law on minorities. To give a couple of additional examples:

Most churches and monasteries in Egypt have had a mosque build adjacent or directly opposite. (There are exceptions, particularly in Cairo, but it is the general tendency in Middle and Upper Egypt where most Coptic Christians live.) The purpose is explicitly to assert the supremacy of the mosque over the church and to ensure that the call to Muslim prayer can be broadcast loudly from the loud-speakers of the mosque directly over the church.

A common feature of attacks on churches is that Muslims will use firearms to shoot at the crosses above the dome or towers of the church. The contention is that the Copts are showing arrogance and contempt of Islam by raising their crosses high.

So on the one hand there are Muslims inspired by Islamic doctrine who destroy churches and murder Copts.

And on the other there are Muslims who form human shields around churches and show solidarity with the Copts, and you have said that they too are operating within Islamic doctrine.

There is more than one possible interpretation of Islamic doctrine then. But will you try to argue that the pro-Copts are somehow not really proper Muslims compared to the ones doing the killing and destruction?

 

[Thomsy]

No, I don't. Please don't put words in my mouth.

You put inverted commas around the word "racial" to emphasize that this was your principal grounds for distinction. A bit rich to acuse me of willfully misrepresenting you.

The Nuremberg laws denied any benefits of citizenship to Jews. They rendered them, if they happened to be German, stateless.

Please read what I wrote. I said: "... the laws governing sexual relations in Egypt (and elsewhere in the Muslim world) are not hugely different from the Nuremberg Laws. A Christian or Jew who attempted a sexual relation with a Muslim woman can expect the same fate as a Slav who had relations with an Aryan woman."

You do not seem to be disputing my original point that communal sexual inequality is enshrined in Islamic law.

But I will take this opportunity to add that Muslims in Egypt often call Copts 'khawaja'. The term is a disparaging term for 'foreigner'. It expresses the fact that, in Islamic law, non-Muslims cannot be full citizens. Indeed, Copts often lament that they are 'foreigners' in their own land.)

The Nuremberg laws didn't employ threats, they allowed legislation to be actioned that made a substantial attempt to end the problem through mass murder.

Neither the Muslims in Egypt nor Islamic law itself demand that Christians should all be gassed. I clearly never said they did.

I said that both Muslims in Egypt and Islamic law alike assert that Christians should be culturally, politically and legally inferior - and that this inferiority should be expressed, inter alia, in the laws of permitted sexual relations. And that is clearly true.

I said that their similarity is limited (and it is, in scale as in action), and that the ambit of these laws differs massively (which it does).

We could go on going round in circles here. I said that Islamic legislation on sexual relations between communities is so inegalitarian as to be 'not hugely different' to the rules of the Nuremberg Laws. I am happy to repeat that. You say the totality of Nazi anti-Jewish legislation, culminating in the acts of the Holocaust, differ 'massively' in 'ambit' from Islamic law. And I have never for a moment disputed that.

...how about constructing an argument that deals with what I've actually said?

Hope I've helped.

 

[Thomsy]

So on the one hand there are Muslims inspired by Islamic doctrine who destroy churches and murder Copts.

And on the other there are Muslims who form human shields around churches and show solidarity with the Copts, and you have said that they too are operating within Islamic doctrine.

There is more than one possible interpretation of Islamic doctrine then. But will you try to argue that the pro-Copts are somehow not really proper Muslims compared to the ones doing the killing and destruction?

For goodness sake, IMR - I tried to answer you question as helpfully as I could, and you are now quibbling about points we made pages back.

Look, Islamic law says that dhimmi are permitted to retain their 'existing' churches and to pray in them. There is nothing 'unIslamic' in a Muslim defending the right of Christians to use their existing churches.

Islamic law also says that Christians should not build or repair churches. So there is nothing 'unIslamic' in a Muslim attacking Christians when they are found to be building or renovating churches.

That is the narrow legalism.

I have said that the core and essence of Islamic doctrine pertaining to minorities is the assertion of Muslim supremacy.
I have also repeatedly said that there are different interpretations of how that supremacy should be expressed and effected.
The essence is the supremacism. But essence must appear - and does so with various differentia.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Nazism was a centralised political ideology based upon one party. It's a bit of a daft fucking comparison to (repeatedly) make.

 

[pk]

In this context, the term fascist serves as an emotive substitute for "authoritarian", though it also describes specific analytical functions – such as emphasizing the privileging of order over freedom in an opponent's discourse, and can be used to describe aspects of islamic law.

Such as up to 80% of Pakistan's female prisoners jailed because they were rape victims. The lucky ones that is.

But let's not talk about that! Let's derail the thread with pedantic hair-splitting and refuse to even discuss islamic values and the inherent incompatibility with a free society!!

 

[pk]

so you don't know much about Norway or the UNHCR either, then

So do you think the head of Oslo rape robbery and vice is also lying??

If so, care to tell me why?

 

[Proper Tidy]

In this context, the term fascist serves as an emotive substitute for "authoritarian", though it also describes specific analytical functions – such as emphasizing the privileging of order over freedom in an opponent's discourse, and can be used to describe aspects of islamic law.

Brilliant

 

[Pickman's model]

In this context, the term fascist serves as an emotive substitute for "authoritarian"

in that case you're a filthy cop. cop in this instance being an emotive substitute for wanker. if you can't call a spoon a spoon then you don't have a leg to stand on to have a pop at other people who spout shit for which they should be held to account.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Indeed, Copts often lament that they are 'foreigners' in their own land.)

They should seek asylum in the UK and get jobs driving black cabs. They'd fit right in.

 

[The39thStep]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This thread is getting rather stupid now.

Does anyone have anything to say about the considerable substantive points Thomsy has been making?

Was Said right in saying that there is not one Islam but many, or is Thomsy right that while there are many different strands to Islam, it retains an essence that is common to all of them.

I have to say that it seems clear to me that there is an essence common to most strands of Islam if not all. And given that there is no such thing as Islam above and beyond that which Muslims believe and do, it is meaningful to talk about that about which they all (or nearly all) agree – namely that the Koran is the word of god as revealed to Mohammad, and that the Koran is chocker-full of direct instructions about how to live.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Why don't you go and ask some muslims what they think rather than a bunch of lefties on the internet?

 

[The39thStep]

Why don't you go and ask some muslims what they think rather than a bunch of lefties on the internet?

Might have to meet one rather than post on here

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What sort of a comment is that?

Shall I take that as a no, then, from you two at least? That you don't have anything substantive to say about it?

That's a poor response.

 

[pk]

What sort of a comment is that?

Shall I take that as a no, then, from you two at least? That you don't have anything substantive to say about it?

That's a poor response.

They have nothing to say about the topic - essentially the treatment of women by Pakistani men both here in UK and in Pakistan itself.

It's almost as if they are forbidden from speaking out about it. Jack Straw comments? Myth. Senior muslim leaders supporting Jack Straw? Myth.

It just isn't happening at all.

 

[belboid]

So do you think the head of Oslo rape robbery and vice is also lying??

If so, care to tell me why?

why are you avoiding the points? Is it because you have no answers? I've already told you my opinion re the views of one single copper.

 

[likesfish]

Islam has many good points .
unfortunately the sort of scum who get into positions of power or want positions of power leave out the good stuff in favour of smiting the unbeliever or the backslider.
there twisted logic because the Pakistan governor allowed his daughters to go in a swimming pool with boys or dance with boys he had to be killed and so should the rest of his family.
that sort of Muslim can fuck off and die

 

[yield]

Was Said right in saying that there is not one Islam but many, or is Thomsy right that while there are many different strands to Islam, it retains an essence that is common to all of them.

I agree with Edward Said and think there are problems with Islamic essentialism. Samuel Huntingdon's 'The Clash of Civilisations' was rubbish.

One of my friends from school is Ismaili Indian. They follow the Aga Khan as a descendant of Mohammad and the way they live seems fairly liberal to me.