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War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

WHAT THE FUCK has this got to do with Ukraine?
It was just a quip, relating to Krtek's remark about me stumbling. He follows me around trying to get a response, usually about nothing at all.

No biggie (as they say.)

The comment on gay people I've known was in response to somebody who brought up gay people. I don't know what it has to do with Ukraine either, but I'm just joining in/trying to keep everyone happy.
 

Pope Francis says Moscow's invasion of Ukraine was "perhaps somehow provoked"​

Angela Giuffrida
Pope Francis has said Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine was “perhaps somehow provoked” as he recalled a conversation in the run-up to the war in which he was warned that Nato was “barking at the gates of Russia”.

In an interview with the Jesuit magazine La Civiltà Cattolica, conducted last month and published on Tuesday, the pontiff condemned the “ferocity and cruelty of the Russian troops” while warning against what he said was a fairytale perception of the conflict as good versus evil.

He said:

We need to move away from the usual Little Red Riding Hood pattern, in that Little Red Riding Hood was good and the wolf was the bad one. Something global is emerging and the elements are very much entwined.
Full report is here:


Pope Francis says Ukraine war was ‘perhaps somehow provoked’
 

Pope Francis says Moscow's invasion of Ukraine was "perhaps somehow provoked"​

Angela Giuffrida
Pope Francis has said Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine was “perhaps somehow provoked” as he recalled a conversation in the run-up to the war in which he was warned that Nato was “barking at the gates of Russia”.

In an interview with the Jesuit magazine La Civiltà Cattolica, conducted last month and published on Tuesday, the pontiff condemned the “ferocity and cruelty of the Russian troops” while warning against what he said was a fairytale perception of the conflict as good versus evil.

He said:


Full report is here:

Pope Francis says Ukraine war was ‘perhaps somehow provoked’
Fucking idiot. He needs to get his own filthy house in order before opening his trap.
 
It was just a quip, relating to Krtek's remark about me stumbling. He follows me around trying to get a response, usually about nothing at all.

No biggie (as they say.)

The comment on gay people I've known was in response to somebody who brought up gay people. I don't know what it has to do with Ukraine either, but I'm just joining in/trying to keep everyone happy.
if you were you'd post less.
 
if you were you'd post less.
Meanwhile, do you think with your own incredible 209000 posts and counting, you'll make the Guinness Book of Records before the worldwide societal collapse you predict for within the coming decade?

Hope so. You deserve it for effort alone. Truly Stakhanovite.
 
Meanwhile, do you think with your own incredible 209000 posts, you'll make the Guinness Book of Records before the worldwide societal collapse you predict for within the coming decade?

Hope so. You deserve it for effort alone. Truly Stakhanovite.
i don't care. other people are far more fascinated by postcounts than i am.
 
I've checked the account, it's real. Russia really do want Ukraine to cease existing.

View attachment 327189

TBF I don't think (from those translations at least) he is talking about Ukraine per se, so much as he is about "Nazis" (with the obvious proviso that the two terms have been largely conflated by some of the Russian commentary since this thing started).
 
Surprise surprise, poorer countries putting their own interests first...



To be clear, Russia’s assault on Ukraine is illegal: the Kremlin attacked a country that presented no clear and present danger to Russian national security. Worse, Russia has indiscriminately struck civilian targets, and its soldiers have committed war crimes. Consequently, Ukraine has the right to defend its independence and should be given the means to do.

Yet, we should not delude ourselves about how far the rest of the world will go in supporting Ukraine. Washington has a bad habit of assuming that, with the right amount of pressure or inducement, other states will eventually line up behind the U.S. as it tries to solve a problem, manage a crisis, or punish an aggressor.

But international politics is a far more complicated affair. How the world looks depends in large measure on where a specific country sits and what its interests are and how much of those interests it can reasonably sacrifice. This is true even in instances, such as Russia’s attack on Ukraine, where a wrong is easily discernible. The U.S. would be better served if it were to live in a world of reality — however frustrating that may be — rather than a world of make-believe, in which countries reliably follow the lead of American policymakers. Otherwise, the U.S. will set itself up for disappointment, frustration and potentially failure.
 
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Also: Opinion | Negotiating to End the Ukraine War Isn’t Appeasement

'Meanwhile, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy insists, not surprisingly, that “victory will be ours” and urges Ukrainians to “defend every meter of our land.” And Biden, even as he makes mention of the need for diplomacy, has so far been unwilling to caution Kyiv against those aims, instead affirming “I will not pressure the Ukrainian government — in private or public — to make any territorial concessions.” “We’re not going to tell the Ukrainians how to negotiate, what to negotiate and when to negotiate,” Colin Kahl, the undersecretary of defense for policy, reiterated this week. “They’re going to set those terms for themselves.”
But Washington has not only a right to discuss war aims with Kyiv, but also an obligation. This conflict arguably represents the most dangerous geopolitical moment since the Cuban missile crisis. A hot war is raging between a nuclear-armed Russia and a NATO-armed Ukraine, with NATO territory abutting the conflict zone. This war could define the strategic and economic contours of the 21st century, possibly opening an era of militarized rivalry between the world’s liberal democracies and an autocratic bloc anchored by Russia and China.
These stakes necessitate direct U.S. engagement in determining when and how this war ends. Instead of offering arms with no strings attached — effectively leaving strategy up to the Ukrainians — Washington needs to launch a forthright discussion about war termination with allies, with Kyiv, and ultimately, with Moscow.'
.
'To prepare the ground for that pivot, the Biden administration should stop making claims that could tie its own hands at the negotiating table. Biden insists that the West must “make it clear that might does not make right.” Otherwise, “it will send a message to other would-be aggressors that they too can seize territory and subjugate other countries. It will put the survival of other peaceful democracies at risk. And it could mark the end of the rules-based international order.” '



'Really? Russia has illegally held Crimea and occupied a chunk of Donbas since 2014. But the rules-based international order has not come to an end; indeed, it has performed admirably in punishing Russia for its new round of aggression against Ukraine. Washington should avoid painting itself into a corner by predicting catastrophe if Russia remains in control of a slice of Ukraine when the fighting stops. Such forecasts make compromise more difficult — and risk magnifying the geopolitical impact of whatever territorial gains Russia may salvage.'



'The claim that Vladimir Putin will end his trouble-making only if he is decisively defeated in Ukraine is another fallacious argument that distorts debate and stands in the way of diplomacy.
Writing in The Atlantic, Anne Applebaum calls for the “humiliation” of Putin and insists that “the defeat, sidelining, or removal of Putin is the only outcome that offers any long-term stability in Ukraine and the rest of Europe.” Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin wants to weaken Russia “to the degree that it can’t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine.”
But this is wishful thinking, not strategic sobriety. Putin is poised to remain in power for the foreseeable future. He will be a troublemaker no matter how this war ends; flexing his geopolitical muscle and burnishing his nationalist credentials are the primary sources of his domestic legitimacy. Furthermore, humiliating Putin is risky business; he could well be more reckless with his back up against the wall than if he can claim victory by taking another bite out of Ukraine. The West has learned to live with and contain Putin for the past two decades — and will likely continue to have to do so into the next.
Finally, Biden needs to start weaning mainstream debate away from the false equation of diplomacy with appeasement. When Henry Kissinger recently proposed in Davos that Ukraine may need to make territorial concessions to end the war, Zelenskyy retorted: “It seems that Mr. Kissinger’s calendar is not 2022, but 1938, and he thought he was talking to an audience not in Davos, but in Munich of that time.” Biden himself asserts that “It would be wrong and contrary to well-settled principles” to counsel Ukraine on potential concessions at the negotiating table.
But strategic prudence should not be mistaken for appeasement. It is in Ukraine’s own self-interest to avoid a conflict that festers for years and instead negotiate a ceasefire and follow-on process aimed at concluding a territorial settlement.

The United States, its NATO allies, Russia, and the rest of the world have an interest in securing this same outcome — precisely why it is now time for Biden to set the negotiating table.'

 
Surprise surprise, pooerer countries putting their own interests first...



To be clear, Russia’s assault on Ukraine is illegal: the Kremlin attacked a country that presented no clear and present danger to Russian national security. Worse, Russia has indiscriminately struck civilian targets, and its soldiers have committed war crimes. Consequently, Ukraine has the right to defend its independence and should be given the means to do.

Yet, we should not delude ourselves about how far the rest of the world will go in supporting Ukraine. Washington has a bad habit of assuming that, with the right amount of pressure or inducement, other states will eventually line up behind the U.S. as it tries to solve a problem, manage a crisis, or punish an aggressor.

But international politics is a far more complicated affair. How the world looks depends in large measure on where a specific country sits and what its interests are and how much of those interests it can reasonably sacrifice. This is true even in instances, such as Russia’s attack on Ukraine, where a wrong is easily discernible. The U.S. would be better served if it were to live in a world of reality — however frustrating that may be — rather than a world of make-believe, in which countries reliably follow the lead of American policymakers. Otherwise, the U.S. will set itself up for disappointment, frustration and potentially failure.

I don't think this war is America's folly. Besides which, as a superpower, it's big enough to arrange its own affairs. I'm more precautious about the Republican loons waving Putin on.
 
I don't think this war is America's folly. Besides which, as a superpower, it's big enough to arrange its own affairs.
You're welcome to think that. The first link from tonight, in particular, argues that this isn't actually the case on a world scale.
 
And again Opinion | Why non-Western countries tend to see Russia's war very differently

'But therein lies the disconnect with much of the Global South. In conversations with diplomats and analysts from across Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America, it was evident to me that these countries largely sympathize with the plight of the Ukrainian people and view Russia as the aggressor. But Western demands that they make costly sacrifices by cutting off economic ties with Russia to uphold a “rules-based order” have begotten an allergic reaction. That order hasn’t been rules-based; instead, it has allowed the U.S. to violate international law with impunity. The West’s messaging on Ukraine has taken its tone-deafness to a whole new level, and it is unlikely to win over the support of countries that have often experienced the worse sides of the international order.'

'The damaging consequences of American interventionism play a significant role in the calculations of countries across the Global South. Most of them seek close relations with the U.S. But because of U.S. unilateralism, they desire options to find counterweights against U.S. power when needed. The emergence of a multipolar system provides countries of the Global South with a degree of protection against American adventurism, while they largely see Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine as a European affair that doesn’t change the larger global picture, in which balancing options against the U.S. rather than Russia are sought after.'
 
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And again Opinion | Why non-Western countries tend to see Russia's war very differently

'But therein lies the disconnect with much of the Global South. In conversations with diplomats and analysts from across Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America, it was evident to me that these countries largely sympathize with the plight of the Ukrainian people and view Russia as the aggressor. But Western demands that they make costly sacrifices by cutting off economic ties with Russia to uphold a “rules-based order” have begotten an allergic reaction. That order hasn’t been rules-based; instead, it has allowed the U.S. to violate international law with impunity. The West’s messaging on Ukraine has taken its tone-deafness to a whole new level, and it is unlikely to win over the support of countries that have often experienced the worse sides of the international order.'

'The damaging consequences of American interventionism play a significant role in the calculations of countries across the Global South. Most of them seek close relations with the U.S. But because of U.S. unilateralism, they desire options to find counterweights against U.S. power when needed. The emergence of a multipolar system provides countries of the Global South with a degree of protection against American adventurism, while they largely see Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine as a European affair that doesn’t change the larger global picture, in which balancing options against the U.S. rather than Russia are sought after.'

Anti-imperialist position then. Fuck the lives in the crossfire? Bellend.
 
You're the one spamming the thread with text and links and avoiding the question. Not me.
There haven't been any questions, and posting links to articles relevant to the subject isn't spamming.

And your comments have no relevance to the articles anyway.
 
There haven't been any questions, and posting links to articles relevant to the subject isn't spamming.

I asked you if your position was 'anti-imperialism', i.e. are you one of the schmucks from Stop the War Coalition or Socialist Worker?

There: answer a question if you want.
 
I asked you if your position was 'anti-imperialism', i.e. are you one of the schmucks from Stop the War Coalition or Socialist Worker?

There: answer a question if you want.
I haven't outlined a position. I've posted up some links for information or debate, and posted some quotes (note the '...')

The articles linked to are from publications a long way from STWC or SW. They're absolutely nothing to do with the left. As you'd realise if you actually read the articles before rushing to comment.
 
I haven't outlined a position. I've posted up some links for information or debate.

The articles linked to are from publications a long way from STWC or SW. They're absolutely nothing to do with the left.

And I'm the 'or debate'. And you have outlined a postion, sort of. You're just too self-important to engage.
 
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