War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[krtek a houby]

"concessions"

 

[JimW]

The West will shape Russia though, it's obviously not a direct process of do one thing and get the outcome you expect, but just as the disaster capitalism helped make Putin, it will have a big impact.

 

[krtek a houby]

Did Putin invade because of the West?

 

[RD2003]

The west tried to shape Russia towards the end of the perestroika period. I doubt if they'd intended the mafia capitalism that resulted.

Mafia capitalism, and the inevitable sense of national humilaition that resulted from the loss of great power status, eventually led to the Putin regime. The Putin regime developed into what we see today. I doubt if any of this was actually intended by the west either. But it's what we got.

The only conclusion is that trying to 'shape' Russia from the outside never goes well.

 

[krtek a houby]

The west tried to shape Russia towards the end of the perestroika period. I doubt if they'd intended the mafia capitalism that resulted.

Mafia capitalism, and the inevitable sense of national humilaition that resulted from the loss of great power status, eventually led to the Putin regime. The Putin regime developed into what we see today. I doubt if any of this was actually intended by the west either. But it's what we got.

The only conclusion is that trying to 'shape' Russia from the outside never goes well.

Agreed. Bit like the national humiliation that Germany went through after ww1.

With that in mind, should concessions be made to placate Putin's expansion?

 

[RD2003]

Agreed. Bit like the national humiliation that Germany went through after ww1.

With that in mind, should concessions be made to placate Putin's expansion?

Start by giving him Europe and take it from there.

 

[Spandex]

The west tried to shape Russia towards the end of the perestroika period. I doubt if they'd intended the mafia capitalism that resulted.

Mafia capitalism, and the inevitable sense of national humilaition that resulted from the loss of great power status, eventually led to the Putin regime. The Putin regime developed into what we see today. I doubt if any of this was actually intended by the west either. But it's what we got.

The only conclusion is that trying to 'shape' Russia from the outside never goes well.

While it's true there's lots of blame in the west for the chaotically disastrous 90s in Russia and what arose out of it - the Bush administration, the G7, the IMF, the World Bank, rapacious western capitalists - you overlook the Russian involvement in turning Russia into a mafia-capitalist state - Yeltsin, his advisors like Gaidar and Chubais, the oligarchs like Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky or Fridman, the KGB/FSK/FSB, the criminal gangs and the people who made it all possible for them, not least the Deputy Mayor of St Petersburg in the 90s, V Putin. It's not as simple as the west did this and Putin was the result.

 

[RD2003]

While it's true there's lots of blame in the west for the chaotically disastrous 90s in Russia and what arose out of it - the Bush administration, the G7, the IMF, the World Bank, rapacious western capitalists - you overlook the Russian involvement in turning Russia into a mafia-capitalist state - Yeltsin, his advisors like Gaidar and Chubais, the oligarchs like Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky or Fridman, the KGB/FSK/FSB, the criminal gangs and the people who made it all possible for them, not least the Deputy Mayor of St Petersburg in the 90s, V Putin. It's not as simple as the west did this and Putin was the result.

I know. I spent extended periods in Moscow 1988-92, and saw it all unfolding.

 

[krtek a houby]

Start by giving him Europe and take it from there.

Will that particular shaping go well?

 

[RD2003]

Will that particular shaping go well?

I don't know but I defintely think he should get Europe. Possibly placate them further by letting them win the Eurovision Song Contest as well.

 

[krtek a houby]

I don't know but I defintely think

Clearly not.

 

[RD2003]

Clearly not.

You ever thought about taking a break in the fresh air? Not got a dog you can walk in the park?

 

[krtek a houby]

You ever thought about taking a break in the fresh air? Not got a dog you can walk in the park?

Your dog whistles would probably be overwhelming for that

 

[RD2003]

Your dog whistles would probably be overwhelming for that

Hey, first alt-right accusations and now dog whistles. I'm beginning to get a bit of a semi about myself.

 

[krtek a houby]

Hey, first alt-right accusations and now dog whistles. I'm beginning to get a bit of a semi about myself.

Tell us about the gay hawk liberal foreigner types again and then you can crack one off.

 

[RD2003]

Tell us about the gay hawk liberal foreigner types again and then you can crack one off.

Don't think I used such a term, did I?

And so here you are again, derailing a thread with one of your pointless circular exposes of another rotter. Sigh.

 

[krtek a houby]

Don't think I used such a term, did I?

And so here you are again, derailing a thread with one of your pointless circular exposes of another rotter. Sigh.

Terrible things, derailing. Why did you bring up brewdog on this thread, btw?

 

[RD2003]

Terrible things, derailing. Why did you bring up brewdog on this thread, btw?

I'd just followed you over there, a bit like you follow me around. I don't usually do this, but it was the early hours and I'd had a few wines. I went to bed shortly afterwards with a sickly feeling that I might be turning into you.

Now, off you go for a while. If you haven't got a dog to take to the park, maybe take the cat?

 

[krtek a houby]

I'd just followed you over there, a bit like you follow me around. I don't usually do this, but it was the early hours and I'd had a few wines. I went to bed shortly afterwards with a sickly feeling that I might be turning into you.

Now, off you go for a while. If you haven't got a dog to take to the park, maybe take the cat?

Actually, this is very much usual for you.

It's precisely the kind of knobbery you excelled in before you got banned the last two times.

Try harder.

 

[RD2003]

Actually, this is very much usual for you.

It's precisely the kind of knobbery you excelled in before you got banned the last two times.

Try harder.

Think you're missing the fact that it's you who always responds to me. I doubt if you'll find a single post where I responded to you first.

 

[agricola]

Interesting. Although you'd think these people would have learned by now that 'we' don't get to 'shape' Russia.


The former head of the British Army has said the west lacks a coherent strategy in Ukraine.

Writing in The Telegraph, General Lord Richards said British ministers and senior officials must be properly trained and qualified in strategy skills, and must have the “moral courage robustly to speak truth unto power.”

Taking aim at the government’s approach, he wrote:

I do think Richards has mistaken the wood for the trees there.

The problems he identifies with Iraq, Libya, Syria and now this are exactly the same problems we see with COVID, economic policy, migration policy, criminal justice policy and every other thing successive governments have gotten wrong - for the decision makers there is no training, no assessment of aptitude to do the job, no requirement to have actually done something of merit beforehand and when things do go wrong there is no learning and no consequences for those who bear responsibility. Training them will not work; they are the problem.

 

[krtek a houby]

Think you're missing the fact that it's you who always responds to me. I doubt if you'll find a single post where I responded to you first.

Maybe you should set up a blog

 

[RD2003]

Maybe you should set up a blog

No.

 

[Dystopiary]

Capitulation to Putin clearly won't end the bloodshed. For one thing he's shown again and again that he cannot be trusted - look how many times he insisted he wouldn't invade Ukraine again before the 24th of Feb. Not only that, but this suggestion of appeasement ignores how colonised people are treated - rape, murder, displacement, ethnic cleansing. Nobody promoting this "concessions" wants to talk about that, they consistently ignore it, just as they wilfully ignore the agency of the people most directly affected.

Look also at how fucking massive Russia is. And how many people speak Russian. The reason is because the history of Russian colonisalism is long, bloody and ongoing. Look at how indigenous people of the "Russian Federation" are treated compared to Slavic Russians to see how "peaceful" Russian occupation is.

Arsenal of Empire: Russian Naval Construction in Crimea and Its Implications for Black Sea Security

[A]fter eight years of occupation, the most striking Russian “success story” in Crimea is... the “military development” of its territory. This “development” has effectively meant building up Crimea into an extensive Russian military base, supported by reliable industrial, transport and logistics, energy, and water infrastructure. Among of the central elements of this policy were the expropriation of Ukrainian shipbuilding enterprises in Crimea, their integration into the Russian military-industrial base, and the issuing of exclusive targeted military orders to enterprises on the peninsula.

Yes, such peace the occupation of Crimea has brought.

If you say "Ukraine should give smth to Russia and reach compromise" remember that you open the gates for another war, another crime, another genocide.

Thread by @ukraine_world on Thread Reader App

 

[RD2003]

Capitulation to Putin clearly won't end the bloodshed. For one thing he's shown again and again that he cannot be trusted - look how many times he insisted he wouldn't invade Ukraine again before the 24th of Feb. Not only that, but this suggestion of appeasement ignores how colonised people are treated - rape, murder, displacement, ethnic cleansing. Nobody promoting this "concessions" wants to talk about that, they consistently ignore it, just as they wilfully ignore the agency of the people most directly affected.

Look also at how fucking massive Russia is. And how many people speak Russian. The reason is because the history of Russian colonisalism is long, bloody and ongoing. Look at how indigenous people of the "Russian Federation" are treated compared to Slavic Russians to see how "peaceful" Russian occupation is.

Arsenal of Empire: Russian Naval Construction in Crimea and Its Implications for Black Sea Security



Yes, such peace the occupation of Crimea has brought.



Thread by @ukraine_world on Thread Reader App

All nasty stuff to be sure, but absolutely irrelevant to how things are going to pan out in Ukraine.

Where they are going to be no clear winners. Plenty of losers though. Too many losers already, with many more to come.

Some people on both sides are going to get richer, though, not to mention the international arms dealers. So there's that.

 

[LDC]

Some people on both sides are going to get richer, though, not to mention the international arms dealers. So there's that.

I do find this a very odd argument. That's how capitalism works, they'll keep getting richer no matter what happens with this war. For sure some will make more money from this, but is that seriously a reason to argue for a Ukrainian surrender?

 

[strung out]

All nasty stuff to be sure, but absolutely irrelevant to how things are going to pan out in Ukraine.

Where they are going to be no clear winners. Plenty of losers though. Too many losers already, with many more to come.

Some people on both sides are going to get richer, though, not to mention the international arms dealers. So there's that.

Just say you'd prefer that the Ukrainian people were subjugated and had genocide committed against them, rather than the west supplied more weapons for them to defend themselves with. It would be a whole load more honest.

 

[RD2003]

Just say you'd prefer that the Ukrainian people were subjugated and had genocide committed against them, rather than the west supplied more weapons for them to defend themselves with. It would be a whole load more honest.

Don't be so stupid.

 

[RD2003]

I do find this a very odd argument. That's how capitalism works, they'll keep getting richer no matter what happens with this war. For sure some will make more money from this, but is that seriously a reason to argue for a Ukrainian surrender?

Nobody's argued for a Ukrainian surrender.

 

[LDC]

Nobody's argued for a Ukrainian surrender.

A negotiated diplomatic solution then? With an unwilling to negotiate any reasonable terms Russia? Just trying to pick out what you're suggesting more generally.