War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[RD2003]

Exactly: Take WW1 and endless pointless death at the behest of a dysfunctional out of touch elite, for example.

Granted. But the answer from elements of the Urban75 left seems to be to uncritically support those who advocate endless, pointless death in Ukraine.

The answer to mass death at the hands of heavy weaponry seems to be 'supply more heavy weaponry.' You couldn't make it up.

 

[RD2003]

Sorry mate, but this is truly grasping at straws.

You don't have to be sorry, But do you also hope they've studied what happened around the moments we previously came close to Artmageddon? Because I have a horrible feeling they might not have.

 

[bendeus]

You don't have to be sorry, But do you also hope they've studied what happened around the moments we previously came close to Artmageddon? Because I have a horrible feeling they might not have.

I have no faith in leaders. However, I'm not of the opinion that said Armageddon was averted last time around because the leaders in question were of a more politically mature generation or had done more war.

Fwiw I, too, hope they're not as much of a bunch of silly cunts as I believe them to be when/if the moment comes.

 

[RD2003]

I have no faith in leaders. However, I'm not of the opinion that said Armageddon was averted last time around because the leaders in question were of a more politically mature generation or had done more war.

Fwiw I, too, hope they're not as much of a bunch of silly cunts as I believe them to be when/if the moment comes.

It doesn't matter that we have no faith in leaders when we still have leaders and can do notthing about them.

Maybe I'm placing too much faith in the fact that political leaders used to age appropriately. I briefly met the deputy leader of our local (big city) council a while back. I couldn't shake off the feeling that he might have come to work on a skateboard.

 

[Raheem]

We've all grown too warmongery because we haven't been in enough wars. What we need is more wars, then we'd think twice about getting involved in wars.

 

[RD2003]

We've all grown too warmongery because we haven't been in enough wars. What we need is more wars, then we'd think twice about getting involved in wars.

Exactly. Maybe.

 

[NoXion]

The original point was that there are no real grown-ups in charge of war policy anymore. Just people who try to echo the approach of their predecessors (or, more accurately, think they're doing so) while lacking their experience. Possibly this is due to growing up in an infantilised society.

Whatever, having these priveledgedly-educated idiots in charge does not bode well. As we can see with their childish talk of good versus evil, and so on, in relation to Ukraine.

Wars of aggression are evil. That's not childish, unless you think having morals is childish. In which case I pity you.

 

[RD2003]

Wars of aggression are evil. That's not childish, unless you think having morals is childish. In which case I pity you.

Pity me all you like. But wars of aggression wil not end. Morals are... flexible. And easily manipulated.

 

[krtek a houby]

Granted. But the answer from elements of the Urban75 left seems to be to uncritically support those who advocate endless, pointless death in Ukraine.

Which "elements", in particular? Name and shame those who advocate death in Ukraine. Apart from Putinists and invading forces, of course.

The answer to mass death at the hands of heavy weaponry seems to be 'supply more heavy weaponry.' You couldn't make it up.

Bet you could.

 

[RD2003]

Which "elements", in particular? Name and shame those who advocate death in Ukraine. Apart from Putinists and invading forces, of course.


Bet you could.

Anybody who advocates a continuation of the war in Ukraine, whether Ukrainian, Russian, or distantly excited foreigner, is inviting mass death and destruction.

I don't have to name anybody when the relevant threads are free to read.

 

[krtek a houby]

Anybody who advocates a continuation of the war in Ukraine, whether Ukrainian, Russian, or distantly excited foreigner, is inviting mass death and destruction.

I don't have to name anybody when the relevant threads are free to read.

So, as usual, nothing to back up your flimsy whimsy opinions.

Who is the "distantly excited foreigner" you've brought into the mix?

 

[RD2003]

So, as usual, nothing to back up your flimsy whimsy opinions.

Who is the "distantly excited foreigner" you've brought into the mix?

Maybe you?

 

[krtek a houby]

Maybe you?

Oh dear. You should get some kip, or lay off the booze. You're not doing yourself any favors with this nonsense.

 

[RD2003]

Oh dear. You should get some kip, or lay off the booze. You're not doing yourself any favors with this nonsense.

Look Krtek, you can worry about Brew Dog one moment, 'me' or this thread the next. Everybody knows you're a good person. Who constantly calls out those who may not be good people.

It's all subjective, but it's also OK, and nothing depends on it. Just relax.

 

[NoXion]

Pity me all you like. But wars of aggression wil not end. Morals are... flexible. And easily manipulated.

That sounds a very Putinesque viewpoint, frankly. It's the classic mistake of spooks and psychopaths to equivocate nuance with licence.

Look Krtek, you can worry about Brew Dog one moment, 'me' or this thread the next. Everybody knows you're a good person. Who constantly calls out those who may not be good people.

How to accuse someone of "virtue signalling" without using those specific words. Got any more thinly-disguised tricks taken from the alt-right playbook?

 

[RD2003]

That sounds a very Putinesque viewpoint, frankly. It's the classic mistake of spooks and psychopaths to equivocate nuance with licence.



How to accuse someone of "virtue signalling" without using those specific words. Got any more thinly-disguised tricks taken from the alt-right playbook?

I suppose accusing somebody of being alt-right is taken from the liberal left playbook?

What a bloody confused mess you liberals have degenerated into.

 

[nogojones]

Armageddon brews nicely behind our backs while people brood on their sexuality and rage endlessly over trivial arguments that can't be won on Twitter.

Oh, it's all the gays fault now.

 

[RD2003]

Oh, it's all the gays fault now.

Yes, that's clearly what I said.

 

[NoXion]

Oh, it's all the gays fault now.

People cannot talk about sexuality at one point, and then talk about international affairs at another. It's impossible. Nobody can hold more than one thought in their head.

 

[NoXion]

I suppose accusing somebody of being alt-right is taken from the liberal left playbook?

What a bloody confused mess you liberals have degenerated into.

There's no confusion on my part. You're the one whining about the supply of weapons, while also claiming not to be against Ukrainian self-defence when pressed on the matter. How does one mount an effective defence without weapons? You're all over the place.

 

[RD2003]

There's no confusion on my part. You're the one whining about the supply of weapons, while also claiming not to be against Ukrainian self-defence when pressed on the matter. How does one mount an effective defence without weapons? You're all over the place.

You know as well as I do that the Ukrainians have ben screaming for offensive weapons for ages, and that the hawks in the west have been only too willing to oblige. Kerching!

 

[krtek a houby]

Oh, it's all the gays fault now.

It's a gay hawk liberal foreigner type conspiracy

 

[JimW]

Granted. But the answer from elements of the Urban75 left seems to be to uncritically support those who advocate endless, pointless death in Ukraine.

The answer to mass death at the hands of heavy weaponry seems to be 'supply more heavy weaponry.' You couldn't make it up.

I think this is because the bulk of civilian deaths have been caused by Russian heavy weaponry, and the feeling is if Ukraine is better able to fight back there is in fact a good chance that will produce the least bloody outcome. I don't think Russia will offer reasonable ceasefire terms any time soon.

 

[RD2003]

I think this is because the bulk of civilian deaths have been caused by Russian heavy weaponry, and the feeling is if Ukraine is better able to fight back there is in fact a good chance that will produce the least bloody outcome. I don't think Russia will offer reasonable ceasefire terms any time soon.

There is no desire to push Russia towards negotaition, because the west has foolishly decided on a fight to the finish. Fight to the very last Ukrainian, as some put it.

Don't really see how flooding the place with yet more heavy weaponry can possibly lead to a less bloody outcome. I know that people claim it will, through some weird twist of logic. But even they know that more lethal weaponry absolutely guarantees more destruction and death.

The arms billionaires are, meanwhile, creaming themselves.

 

[JimW]

There is no desire to push Russia towards negotaition, because the west has foolishly decided on a fight to the finish. Fight to the very last Ukrainian, as some put it.

Don't really see how flooding the place with yet more heavy weaponry can possibly lead to a less bloody outcome. I know that people claim it will, through some weird twist of logic. But even they know that more lethal weaponry absolutely guarantees more destruction and death.

The arms billionaires are, meanwhile, creaming themselves.

I think it is possible that the killing involved in pushing back the Russian artillery that is shelling cities would still mean less bloodshed than leaving them free rein. Obviously no great military knowledge myself.

 

[RD2003]

I think it is possible that the killing involved in pushing back the Russian artillery that is shelling cities would still mean less bloodshed than leaving them free rein. Obviously no great military knowledge myself.

I know that this is the assumption. Seems rather naive to me, but I'm no expert either. Nobody on here is.

 

[srb7677]

The fundamental fact is that Ukraine is a victim of aggression and has the right to defend itself. The rest of us giving it the ability to do so by supplying arms is not unreasonable under the circumstances. The only chance of Russia negotiating is failure to achieve it's goals militarily.

The best analogy is the Winter War of 1939-40. The Russians negotiated only after having failed to quickly overrun Finland. But the Finns in the end had to make concessions that addressed legitimate Russian security concerns. Any new settlement with Ukraine can only be negotiated once Russia acknowledges military failure. At which point the Ukrainians will need to offer concessions that recognise legitimate Russian security concerns. This will probably have to involve recognition of the loss of Crimea and cession of Luhansk and Donetsk, and a promise never to join NATO. Or something very like this.

 

[RD2003]

The fundamental fact is that Ukraine is a victim of aggression and has the right to defend itself. The rest of us giving it the ability to do so by supplying arms is not unreasonable under the circumstances. The only chance of Russia negotiating is failure to achieve it's goals militarily.

The best analogy is the Winter War of 1939-40. The Russians negotiated only after having failed to quickly overrun Finland. But the Finns in the end had to make concessions that addressed legitimate Russian security concerns. Any new settlement with Ukraine can only be negotiated once Russia acknowledges military failure. At which point the Ukrainians will need to offer concessions that recognise legitimate Russian security concerns. This will probably have to involve recognition of the loss of Crimea and cession of Luhansk and Donetsk, and a promise never to join NATO. Or something very like this.

Apart from the lack of recognition that the weapons now being supplied can only result in needless escalation, I agree entirely.

*Note to idiots and the self-styled morally upstanding. This is not because I think this is wonderful. Just more or less inevitable. Not my world or yours, just the real one.

 

[RD2003]

Meanwhile, Biden has a 'Well I did try to tell you, dickhead' moment.

Ukraine's president 'didn't want to hear' warnings of Russian invasion, said Biden​

Speaking at a fundraising reception in Los Angeles on Friday, the US president said his counterpart Volodymyr Zelenskiy, “didn’t want to hear” America’s warnings of a Russian invasion, AFP reports.

Joe Biden, who reportedly said a lot of people thought he was exaggerating, added:

“[Russian President Vladimir Putin] was gonna go into the border. And there was no doubt, and Zelenskiy didn’t want to hear it, nor did a lot of people. I understand why they didn’t want to hear it, but he went in.

 

[RD2003]

Interesting. Although you'd think these people would have learned by now that 'we' don't get to 'shape' Russia.


The former head of the British Army has said the west lacks a coherent strategy in Ukraine.

Writing in The Telegraph, General Lord Richards said British ministers and senior officials must be properly trained and qualified in strategy skills, and must have the “moral courage robustly to speak truth unto power.”

Taking aim at the government’s approach, he wrote:

There is, at best, what might be termed incremental strategy with again no early and decisive synchronisation of ends, ways and means. It is a “let’s see how it goes” “strategy”, in other words not really strategy at all. There is still little idea in London, Washington or elsewhere how “we” want the war to pan out, or what sort of Russia we are seeking to shape, especially on the vital long-term issue of relations with China.