War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[keybored]

Yes there was. I'm a bit puzzled as to what else Krtek thinks it might have been.

Maybe he was taking offence at this and not you and your bee.

It has a tiny, immeasurable effect but even here we are part of the tide of public opinion; butterflies flapping their wings and all that.

 

[RD2003]

Maybe he was taking offence at this and not you and your bee.

Maybe he was.

Update on the bee. It seems it sent its mate, the big fuck off wasp (first one I've really noticed this spring) to finish the job the other day, but I managed to slam the bedroom window shut before it gained entry. The speed with which I moved was another betrayal of my cowardice, but I am still working on it. Poring over the Keyboard Generals' Manual even as we speak (it's a kind of Anarchist Cookbook for the times.)

 

[RD2003]

Russia-Ukraine: a war without end?

EIU expects the war in Ukraine to be protracted, as the issues at stake are existential and not susceptible to compromise.

www.eiu.com

• EIU said several days after Russia invaded Ukraine that the outcome of the war was unlikely to conform to Russia’s original game plan of a swift toppling of the government, and so it has proved.
• Having gravely miscalculated, and faced with determined resistance and operational problems, Russia has refocused its war effort in Ukraine’s eastern region.
• We expect the war to be protracted, as the issues at stake are existential and not susceptible to compromise; Western support will give Ukraine the means to keep fighting, but both sides will struggle to win a decisive victory.
• Prospects for a negotiated agreement are slim; even if a peace deal materialises, a stable, durable settlement is unlikely.
• Western sanctions on Russia will remain in place indefinitely; Russia’s economy will decouple from the West; commodity supply chains will have to adjust to the loss of Russian inputs, and the wider region will be subject to long-term instability.

Western support for Ukraine may prolong, not shorten, the war

There is a view that Western support will be decisive in helping Ukraine to repel the Russian invasion and shorten the war. However, wars are notoriously unpredictable, and it is also possible that Western support that stops short of direct involvement will not be sufficient to enable Ukraine to defeat Russia. Western countries have provided arms, intelligence, military training and financial support to Ukraine. The US alone has committed to providing more than US$34bn in military aid since December 2021. In a signal of long-term intent, the US has revived the Lend-Lease Act, which originally committed the country to financing the war effort against Nazi Germany and will make it easier to export military equipment to Ukraine. The UK and other European countries have also provided weapons and other forms of military aid. Nevertheless, Ukraine’s leadership is frustrated that NATO is not doing more to support the war effort, for example by imposing a no-fly zone, which Western countries are not prepared to do because it would in effect be a declaration of war against Russia. However, as long as the West remains committed to supporting Ukraine, the government in Kiev will hold on to the hope that, if it keeps fighting long enough, the West will eventually take more decisive action on its behalf.

 

[Raheem]

Maybe he was.

Update on the bee. It seems it sent its mate, the big fuck off wasp (first one I've really noticed this spring) to finish the job the other day, but I managed to slam the bedroom window shut before it gained entry. The speed with which I moved was another betrayal of my cowardice, but I am still working on it. Poring over the Keyboard Generals' Manual even as we speak (it's a kind of Anarchist Cookbook for the times.)

Is this an extended metaphor? Are you Russia defending yourself from flying Nazis?

 

[RD2003]

Is this an extended metaphor? Are you Russia defending yourself from flying Nazis?

It flatters me that you might think I'm clever enough to construct (see,' construct,' cunting clever term, eh?) an 'extended metaphor.'

Clearly you went to university.

 

[Raheem]

It flatters me that you might think I'm clever enough to construct (see,' construct,' cunting clever term, eh?) an 'extended metaphor.'

Clearly you went to university.

I never said it was clever.

 

[RD2003]

I never said it was clever.

Oh.

But it would have been if it was what I'd intended, you have to admit.

 

[Rimbaud]

Nuanced indeed, and, as I found in many stays in both Russia and Ukraine, probably beyond any westerner's true understanding.

Ah, the mystic unknowable Orient.

 

[RD2003]

Ah, the mystic unknowable Orient.

Not really. After all, most of us don't even understand Ireland, let alone Russia.

 

[krtek a houby]

Not really. After all, most of us don't even understand Ireland, let alone Russia.

Ahem. You don't speak for "most of us".

 

[RD2003]

Ahem. You don't speak for "most of us".

Can you point to where I said I did?

 

[krtek a houby]

Can you point to where I said I did?

Sure.

Post 519 and countless others where you claim that "most of us" are unable to comprehend/or do things concerning war/conflict/Ukraine/Russia and now Ireland.

 

[Dystopiary]

Post 474:

Puzzling. Would you, for instance, post up a quote from an 'actual English person?'
I think the answer is no. Seeing as there are no 'actual English people, ' just the English in all our idiotic mess. Which would also be the case if we were at war with an invader.

Like everyone is English.

 

[RD2003]

Sure.

Post 519 and countless others where you claim that "most of us" are unable to comprehend/or do things concerning war/conflict/Ukraine/Russia and now Ireland.

That isn't the same as claiming to speak for everybody else. It's just an opinion.

 

[krtek a houby]

A few other claims

I did mean it that way. Most of the left went fucking mad ages ago.

'The West' is not 'us.' We, the mugs on the street, don't count. We have no say. Most of us don't even have an independent or halfway coherent opinion.

 

[RD2003]

Post 474:



Like everyone is English.

Don't know what a perceived claim, made by nobody, that everybody is English has to do with post 474.

 

[RD2003]

A few other claims

Again, no claim is made anywhere to speak for everybody else.

Anyway, you're doing your typical thing of trying to tie somebody up in trivia, with a fake, underlying sense of hurt in your tone. Please try to desist. It's tedious.

 

[krtek a houby]

Again, no claim is made anywhere to speak for everybody else.

Anyway, you're doing your typical thing of trying to tie somebody up in trivia, with a fake, underlying sense of hurt in your tone. Please try to desist. It's tedious.

You requested examples of your tomfoolery. Now you want to move on.

This is what happens when you try and inflict your brand of world-weary-I-know-best miserabilism on the boards.

Post bullshit, and you'll be challenged on it.

 

[RD2003]

You requested examples of your tomfoolery. Now you want to move on.

This is what happens when you try and inflict your brand of world-weary-I-know-best miserabilism on the boards.

Post bullshit, and you'll be challenged on it.

Challenge all you like.

Point me to where the board rules forbid so-called miserabilism.

Everybody tries to 'inflict' their views on the boards, not just those whose views you might not like.

If you don't like something, don't read it, and, most of all, don't let it bother you. Life's too short.

 

[RD2003]

A few sane voices remain, at least.

Ukraine’s Way Out

Strategic prudence argues in favor of pocketing successes rather than pressing the fight and running the tantamount risks.

www.theatlantic.com

'With both sides doubling down, NATO must engage in a forthright dialogue with the Ukrainian government about its goals and how best to bring the bloodshed to a close sooner rather than later. Russia has already been dealt a decisive strategic defeat. Ukrainian forces have rebuffed the advance on Kyiv and retain control of most of the country; the West has hit Russia with severe economic sanctions; and NATO has reinforced its eastern flank, while Finland and Sweden now seek to join the alliance. For NATO and Ukraine alike, strategic prudence argues in favor of pocketing these successes rather than pressing the fight and running the tantamount risks.'



'Several considerations call for such restraint. First, the longer the war continues, the greater the death, destruction, and dislocation it will reap. Russia’s invasion has already taken tens of thousands of lives, forced some 12 million Ukrainians to flee their homes (about 6 million have left the country), and destroyed some $60 billion of Ukraine’s infrastructure. Sanctions against Russia and the war’s disruption to supply chains are fueling rising prices in many countries and could spawn a global food shortage.'


'Second is the risk of escalation. If Russian forces fare well in the east and the south, the Kremlin could eventually decide to enlarge its own war aims and seek to swallow more of Ukraine. Alternatively, if Russian forces falter in the coming weeks and Vladimir Putin faces a further defeat, he could well look to use weapons of mass destruction, or to trigger a wider conflict to change the course of the war. Accidental escalation is also a real risk, with Russia already carrying out strikes near NATO territory and Russian and NATO forces operating in close proximity.'

 

[Duncan2]

Chap from the world Food Programme was on the news earlier pointing out the fact that the most deaths that result from the continuation of this conflict could actually be of those ,particularly children,who die of malnutrition in Sub-Saharan Africa- where basic foodstuffs will become increasingly unaffordable
unless of course it goes nuclear in which case all bets are off.

 

[Raheem]

Chap from the world Food Programme was on the news earlier pointing out the fact that the most deaths that result from the continuation of this conflict could actually be of those ,particularly children,who die of malnutrition in Sub-Saharan Africa- where basic foodstuffs will become increasingly unaffordable
unless of course it goes nuclear in which case all bets are off.

This would not, strictly speaking, be a result of the continuation of the conflict, but of the Russian blockade of Ukraine.

 

[RD2003]

This would not, strictly speaking, be a result of the continuation of the conflict, but of the Russian blockade of Ukraine.

Which is, strictly speaking, a result of the continuation of the conflict...

 

[Raheem]

Which is, strictly speaking, a result of the continuation of the conflict...

But, not strictly speaking, the same thing as the continuation of the conflict.

Also: fuck off.

 

[RD2003]

But, not strictly speaking, the same thing as the continuation of the conflict.

Also: fuck off.

Of course it is. As long as the conflict continues, so too will stuff like the blockade. As I, among others, have been saying all along, there is no possible good outcome in all this.

And do try to rein in your emotions.

 

[Raheem]

Of course it is. As long as the conflict continues, so too will stuff like the blockade. As I, among others, have been saying all along, there is no possible good outcome in all this.

And do try to rein in your emotions.

I knew there was no point in saying fuck off.

 

[Dystopiary]

But, not strictly speaking, the same thing as the continuation of the conflict.

Also: fuck off.

One Ukrainian guy responded succinctly to that American's steaming pile of garbage: "Жуй сраку" (Chew ass).

 

[RD2003]

One Ukrainian guy responded succinctly to that American's steaming pile of garbage: "Жуй сраку" (Chew ass).

Bet the American still hasn't recovered.

 

[Dystopiary]

Bet the American still hasn't recovered.

He doesn't give a shit what Ukrainians think.

 

[RD2003]

He doesn't give a shit what Ukrainians think.

Especially as there are tens of millions of them, none of them thinking exactly the same thing.