War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[Dystopiary]

What Putin says about Russia's historic borders is one interpretation of a view that has been widespread among Russia's elites, and hence widespread among the population, for centuries. And he didn't think of it himself. And what he says about Ukraine being mostly indistinguishable from Russia isn't just his own view either. It is widespread in Russia and was, at least until recently, in Ukraine as well.

In Ukraine, I don't think so.

(Snipped because I don't know how to put others' words in bold.)

 

[bluescreen]

I'm glad you are sorry, but struggle to understand in which court's opinion it is not good enough.

As if you or I know what could be done by negotiation if the fighting stopped. It is as likely as not that, as in waking up from a drinking binge, the hangover would bite and reality would kick in.

As with many others on here, however, you're indignant about nothing really-you are getting your way already. The path towards a possible devastating escalation is already laid out and those who call for a halt to it marginalised.

When you say 'if the fighting stopped' you mean 'Ukrainian resistance' don't you? You don't think the Russians will stop, do you?

And when I say 'it's not good enough' I mean you haven't said anything.

 

[RD2003]

In Ukraine, I don't think so.

(Snipped because I don't know how to put others' words in bold.)

Much of the commentary we're getting now emphasises that the widespread view among many Ukrainians that they were closely tied to Russia, if not actually Russian, is being undermined by the invasion.

 

[RD2003]

When you say 'if the fighting stopped' you mean 'Ukrainian resistance' don't you? You don't think the Russians will stop, do you?

And when I say 'it's not good enough' I mean you haven't said anything.

Do you think that an invasion has never been brought to a halt before, with negotiations taking place in the aftermath?

Coming from you-another mere parroter of the line of your own rulers and betters-an accusation of not having said anything is one to take with a pinch of salt. I'll have it on my chips if I nip out for some in a bit. Not decided if I will yet, mind.

 

[bluescreen]

Do you think that an invasion has never been brought to a halt before, with negotiations taking place in the aftermath?

Coming from you-another mere parroter of the line of your own rulers and betters-an accusation of not having said anything is one to take with a pinch of salt. I'll have it on my chips if I nip out for some in a bit. Not decided if I will yet, mind.

How will it be brought to a halt, do you reckon?

And please don't insult me with talk of my rulers and betters. What about your own?

 

[Dystopiary]

Much of the commentary we're getting now emphasises that the widespread view among many Ukrainians that they were closely tied to Russia, if not actually Russian, is being undermined by the invasion.

It's a lot more nuanced than that though isn't it. If you referred to most Ukrainians as "Russian" long before Feb 24, it would've been pretty offensive. It's not really possible to discuss the relationship without acknowledging the long history of Russian colonisation.

 

[RD2003]

How will it be brought to a halt, do you reckon?

And please don't insult me with talk of my rulers and betters. What about your own?

Mine are yours. Neither of us challenge them in any meaningful way, and nor is there any realistic possibility of us doing so.

I don't know how it will be brought to a halt, only that it should be. It's beyond my pay scale.

 

[RD2003]

It's a lot more nuanced than that though isn't it. If you referred to most Ukrainians as "Russian" long before Feb 24, it would've been pretty offensive. It's not really possible to discuss the relationship without acknowledging the long history of Russian colonisation.

Nuanced indeed, and, as I found in many stays in both Russia and Ukraine, probably beyond any westerner's true understanding.

 

[Dystopiary]

Nuanced indeed, and, as I found in many stays in both Russia and Ukraine, probably beyond any westerner's true understanding.

Perhaps, this is why it's so important to listen to Ukrainians!

 

[RD2003]

Perhaps, this is why it's so important to listen to Ukrainians!

Don't think anybody has suggested they shouldn't be listened to. As with ourselves, however, there is no single block of Ukrainians-only those who have been elevated into representatives of Ukrainians, with their own interests, and priveliges to defend etc.

 

[Dystopiary]

Don't think anybody has suggested they shouldn't be listened to. As with ourselves, however, there is no single block of Ukrainians-only those who have been elevated into representatives of Ukrainians, with their own interests, and priveliges to defend etc.

Yes there's isn't a single block of Ukrainians, same as there isn't a single homogenous block of any group of people.
But your second bit is not true. I don't know how you feel about social media but there are lots of Ukrainians on twitter, for example, and the translate tool is far better than it was a few years ago, so it's a great place for people who aren't allocated spokespeople for anything to share their views (for all twitter's faults, and there are many).

 

[RD2003]

Yes there's isn't a single block of Ukrainians, same as there isn't a single homogenous block of any group of people.
But your second bit is not true. I don't know how you feel about social media but there are lots of Ukrainians on twitter, for example, and the translate tool is far better than it was a few years ago, so it's a great place for people who aren't allocated spokespeople for anything to share their views (for all twitter's faults, and there are many).

Twitter, generally speaking, represents Twitter users. And it isn't as if it can't be used in a co-ordinated way to make a certain viewpoint the only accepted one.

If, as we're constantly told, 'the Russians' exploit social media, so too do other states and their proxies. Obviously.

 

[bluescreen]

Mine are yours. Neither of us challenge them in any meaningful way, and nor is there any realistic possibility of us doing so.

I don't know how it will be brought to a halt, only that it should be. It's beyond my pay scale.

You assume a lot about me that you don't know. I don't know anything about you either. Even if you sound like a world-weary history teacher instructing naive children about the pitfalls of western media in thrall to/in charge of/ governments, I don't assume that's what you are, or that your pay scale is as low as you keep suggesting. These discussions shouldn't stray into personalities.

 

[Dystopiary]

Twitter, generally speaking, represents Twitter users. And it isn't as if it can't be used in a co-ordinated way to make a certain viewpoint the only accepted one.

If, as we're constantly told, 'the Russians' exploit social media, so too do other states and their proxies. Obviously.

Yes I can see that, but I'm talking regular people going about their lives, coping in a war, lots of things. What is a twitter user? Just a person, same as a forum poster.

 

[RD2003]

You assume a lot about me that you don't know. I don't know anything about you either. Even if you sound like a world-weary history teacher instructing naive children about the pitfalls of western media in thrall to/in charge of/ governments, I don't assume that's what you are, or that your pay scale is as low as you keep suggesting. These discussions shouldn't stray into personalitie

I assumed nothing about you personally. I responded to what you said on here to me, which I can only view as an obedient parroting of the line of our own ruling class.

 

[RD2003]

Yes I can see that, but I'm talking regular people going about their lives, coping in a war, lots of things. What is a twitter user? Just a person, same as a forum poster.

Twitter users come in all shapes and sizes...

 

[bluescreen]

I assumed nothing about you personally. I responded to what you said on here to me, which I can only view as an obedient parroting of the line of our own ruling class.

How I long for the superior insight that will show me the futile Ukrainian resistance for the Nazi insurgency it truly is, and the Russian army as their liberators.

 

[RD2003]

How I long for the superior insight that will show me the futile Ukrainian resistance for the Nazi insurgency it truly is, and the Russian army as their liberators.

Where did I claim superior insight? Or say any of this?

You, along with many others, need to learn that if somebody has a different viewpoint from your own, it isn't actually a problem. In fact, it is inevitable.

 

[krtek a houby]

Twitter, generally speaking, represents Twitter users. And it isn't as if it can't be used in a co-ordinated way to make a certain viewpoint the only accepted one.

If, as we're constantly told, 'the Russians' exploit social media, so too do other states and their proxies. Obviously.

Do you think that it's an exaggeration, this talk of Russian propaganda & exploitation of social media?

 

[bluescreen]

Where did I claim superior insight? Or say any of this?

You, along with many others, need to learn that if somebody has a different viewpoint from your own, it isn't actually a problem. In fact, it is inevitable.

Sorry for the snark but it's difficult to work out what your viewpoint is:
The Russian govt has a view: like it or lump it, it is what it is.
Ukrainians are led by a corrupt government.
Ukrainians are fighting against the tide.
They had better stop fighting or more people will die.
The west had better stop arming Ukraine or Ukraine will carry on fighting and cause more deaths by their resistance.
People supporting Ukrainian resistance are responsible for death, and escalation of conflict.
Western governments will try to make capital out of misery.

Anything I've missed?

ETA: I'm going to stop now, because this is garbaging up the thread.

 

[RD2003]

Do you think that it's an exaggeration, this talk of Russian propaganda & exploitation of social media?

Like you, I don't know if it is or isn't. But if they, or anybody else, has the ability/opportunity to do it, they'd be fools not to, wouldn't they?*


* I seem to remember that Caitlin Moran agrees with this view. For what it's worth.

 

[RD2003]

Sorry for the snark but it's difficult to work out what your viewpoint is:
The Russian govt has a view: like it or lump it, it is what it is.
Ukrainians are led by a corrupt government.
Ukrainians are fighting against the tide.
They had better stop fighting or more people will die.
The west had better stop arming Ukraine or Ukraine will carry on fighting and cause more deaths by their resistance.
People supporting Ukrainian resistance are responsible for death, and escalation of conflict.
Western governments will try to make capital out of misery.

Anything I've missed?

ETA: I'm going to stop now, because this is garbaging up the thread.

Don't worry yourself too much about it. It's just me and you on here. Both of us woud probably be better employing our energies elsewhere, but... It is what it is...

 

[Kaka Tim]

As ever - he just sneers and snipes but when actually challenged on the details of his argument - which he tirelessly churns out all over the boards - he goes all vague and airy and assumes this weary fatalism - its like passive aggressive Buddhism. Or someone being a wanker.

 

[krtek a houby]

Like you, I don't know if it is or isn't. But if they, or anybody else, has the ability/opportunity to do it, they'd be fools not to, wouldn't they?*


* I seem to remember that Caitlin Moran agrees with this view. For what it's worth.

And there's nothing anyone can do about it, is there?

That's your message to everyone.

 

[Humberto]

'War evangelists' of doom, incidentally.

 

[RD2003]

And there's nothing anyone can do about it, is there?

That's your message to everyone.

Well... What are you doing about this heinous intrusion into all our lives?

If I had a message, I am absolutely certain nobody would listen. After all, few listened to Jesus Christ at first. Do you have amessage for humanity? Or even U75?

 

[RD2003]

As ever - he just sneers and snipes but when actually challenged on the details of his argument - which he tirelessly churns out all over the boards - he goes all vague and airy and assumes this weary fatalism - its like passive aggressive Buddhism. Or someone being a wanker.

Again though, why are you so bothered when you are already on the winning side?

I genuinely find it odd that people these days have such a problem with people disagreeing with them. As if this isn't going to go on for ever.

 

[Humberto]

Well... What are you doing about this heinous intrusion into all our lives?

If I had a message, I am absolutely certain nobody would listen. After all, few listened to Jesus Christ at first. Do you have amessage for humanity? Or even U75?

Well your post count on this thread (and possibly numerous others) dwarfs everyone else's. And you certainly don't. Garbage.

 

[RD2003]

Well your post count on this thread (and possibly numerous others) dwarfs everyone else's. And you certainly don't. Garbage.

Well, I did start the thread. And so it's my fucking thread.

Paraphrasing Sonny Bono's claim regarding hesitantly confronting Elvis about his reading the lyrics from sheets of paper at Las Vegas: 'Gimme a break Sonny, I am the fucking King after all.'

 

[krtek a houby]

Well... What are you doing about this heinous intrusion into all our lives?

If I had a message, I am absolutely certain nobody would listen. After all, few listened to Jesus Christ at first. Do you have amessage for humanity? Or even U75?

Comparing yourself with the messiah now. Hmm.

For starters, would take a closer look at the kind of accounts on social media and other sights that repeatedly explain how there's nothing nobody can do & how we must accept the situation. How any resistance, against an invading country, is futile.



How's that for you, Jesus?