VAR and the Premier League

[1927]

why don't they apply the same rules as cricket? unless it's a completely obvious mistake, on field decision stands! Job done.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

why don't they apply the same rules as cricket? unless it's a completely obvious mistake, on field decision stands! Job done.

That's not really how it works in cricket. They give a very precisely defined grey area in which onfield decision stands, but they measure very carefully to get to either in or out of that area. Cricket's a stop-start game anyway, so it lends itself to this. Also, they do now go through the process on the big screen in the ground so everyone can see, like they do in rugby.

tbh I think players might have to start thinking differently about offside and start their runs a fraction later. Where once they could run the lines thinking 'I'm level here' cos no linesperson is ever going to flag for a toenail offside, now they really need to mentally think like it was before 1990 - level is not onside, so try to be just behind level, cos if you think you're level, there's a fighting chance that some bit of you isn't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Other thing about cricket (and I think rugby) is that the third ump is at the ground and everyone knows who it is - you even get to hear their voice and their reasoning. Football could do with more of that I think.

I think cricket has it just about right now, but it's taken a few years and numerous tweaks to get there. Plus it's still not totally 100 per cent satisfactory, particularly over clean catches, but it never will be. One way to get fans to accept the imperfections is by transparency and involving them as much as possible in the process. VAR as it stands currently is the opposite of that - like it's been designed to keep fans alienated from the process and piss them off as much as possible.

Seems to me part of the problem here is the administrators' attitude towards fans at the ground - they're a potential public order problem to be contained rather than paying customers who deserve respect.

 

[two sheds]

Other thing about cricket (and I think rugby) is that the third ump is at the ground and everyone knows who it is - you even get to hear their voice and their reasoning. Football could do with more of that I think.

Yep - with rugby you hear the discussions which are also really interesting. Also no arguing with the refs. Piss them off and you're back 10 yards no discussion.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I would go back to human error for offsides, this pixel to armpit stuff is bollocks.

 

[The39thStep]

dunno if this is true technically but

VAR cannot be accurate to the nearest cm. If a player moving at 2metres per second, it would need a camera capable of 200fps. VAR uses cameras at 50fps. Not physically possible, tech not fit for purpose. "Change it to any part of the attacking player that's onside"

Souness

 

[The39thStep]

dunno if this is true technically but Souness

Apparently it isnt

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Dunno about that, but there is also the point of determining the precise moment that the ball leaves the foot of the passing player. That can't be done with total precision because the ball stays in contact with the foot for a period of time during a kick. So a moment is chosen in which to freeze the frame, but whether it should be that exact frame or perhaps one either side can't actually be determined without having sensors in the ball that can tell when the pressure from the foot has gone and so the ball has left the foot.

I don't know the details of how VAR operates, but if it uses just one frame to determine offside, then it's flawed for the above reason. One solution could be to select a bunch of frames either side of the one thought to be the right one and judge it offside only if there is offside in all of them. Otherwise, you're not allowing for the fuzziness of reality.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Cricket is not as rigid and you would think the scope for accuracy is better than football.

 

[two sheds]

Yep, the three red traffic light tests for whether someone's bowled/caught/lbw plus the snickometer type thing look absolute - I've never seen anyone dispute them.

 

[two sheds]

Britse videoscheidsrechters onder vuur wegens dubieuze interventies

Britse videoscheidsrechters onder vuur wegens dubieuze interventies

De VAR heeft een voorlopig dieptepunt bereikt in de Engelse voetbalcompetitie. In de wedstrijd tussen Norwich City en Tottenham Hotspur (2-2) werd zaterdag een prachtige en loepzuivere treffer van Teemu Pukki wegens ‘buitenspel’ afgekeurd. Ook bij Brighton–Bournemouth en Southampton–Crystal Palace kwam de videoscheidsrechter met dubieuze interventies bij ogenschijnlijk geldige goals.

Says it all really.

 

[two sheds]

And for those of you who can't be bothered to learn Dutch

British video referees under attack due to questionable interventions

The VAR has reached a provisional low point in the English football competition. In the match between Norwich City and Tottenham Hotspur (2-2), a beautiful and flawless hit by Teemu Pukki was rejected on Saturday for "offside". At Brighton – Bournemouth and Southampton – Crystal Palace, the video referee also came up with seemingly valid goals with dubious interventions.

Am impressed at how good Google translate is nowadays.

 

[planetgeli]

One of the problems appears to be we are now dealing with measurement as opposed to judgement. Hence armpit offside. We need to go back to judgement based on what the ref sees unless they make a clear and obvious error.

Another major problem is only looking at goals. This produces inconsistency. At Brighton on Saturday the home team won a corner with 5 mins to play. The corner was given despite the Brighton striker being clearly offside. If they'd scored from that corner the goal would have stood. So how far do we take play back?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

One of the problems appears to be we are now dealing with measurement as opposed to judgement. Hence armpit offside. We need to go back to judgement based on what the ref sees unless they make a clear and obvious error.

I think the rule changed but it used to be the case that if the defender and striker were about level then the striker got the benefit of the doubt. They should go back to that. So all this drawing of two lines virtually on top of each other at a single frame is obvious rubbish (as others have said). They should just have a quick look and if its level ish then that's on side.

Sort of separate to the VAR thing. They should also get rid of the rule that if it accidentally hits anyones arm the goal is ruled out.

They have at least started overruling obvious errors with VAR in the last few weeks though. Previously it always sided with the ref.

 

[The39thStep]

Article that argues the laws of the game ie offside should be changed and also that managers were responsible for introduction of VAR by blaming referees. Personally i think if refereeing was blamed by anyone it was by the TV companies endless replays of incidents , who now broadcast endless replays of VAR replays . But there you go
In Premier League, V.A.R. Exposes the Limits of the Laws

 

[butchersapron]

I want an injustice done to me. That's the fucking game. I crave injustice. I demand injustice. How can we keep hatreds/grudges going with this stupid line drawing. Fuck justice, fuck VAR, fuck the FA.

 

[AverageJoe]

The issue would solved if...

1. It's measured by where the players feet are at the time, and not any other part of the body. It's called football.

2. The VAR is shown on the big screens like it is in rugby

3. The ref goes to the VAR screen pitch side and works with the people upstairs, but still has the option to overrule them.

Otherwise, what's the point of refs any more?

 

[planetgeli]

Common sense may be on the way (slowly)

VAR 'should not be too forensic' - football law-makers set to issue guidance

 

[brixtonblade]

View attachment 194431

Should have put that in spoilers, I'm still fuming!
Blades have had the shittiest end of the shitty VAR shit stick and Wilder has called it right: the price we've paid (not celebrating, boring lines on screens) isn't worth a marginal improvement in decision accuracy

 

[brixtonblade]

One of the problems appears to be we are now dealing with measurement as opposed to judgement. Hence armpit offside. We need to go back to judgement based on what the ref sees unless they make a clear and obvious error.

Another major problem is only looking at goals. This produces inconsistency. At Brighton on Saturday the home team won a corner with 5 mins to play. The corner was given despite the Brighton striker being clearly offside. If they'd scored from that corner the goal would have stood. So how far do we take play back?

There's also a question about the accuracy of the judgement.... All the discussions about frame rates which seem to me to boil down to "there's still a grey area"

 

[Favelado]

The issue would solved if...

1. It's measured by where the players feet are at the time, and not any other part of the body. It's called football.

2. The VAR is shown on the big screens like it is in rugby

3. The ref goes to the VAR screen pitch side and works with the people upstairs, but still has the option to overrule them.

Otherwise, what's the point of refs any more?

Don't want a big screen at the ground because they're shit.

 

[Favelado]

I want an injustice done to me. That's the fucking game. I crave injustice. I demand injustice. How can we keep hatreds/grudges going with this stupid line drawing. Fuck justice, fuck VAR, fuck the FA.

When I'm walking home after a match, I want to be able to turn to my grandad and say, "Those were the fairest 90 minutes of my life."

 

[Lord Camomile]

The issue would solved if...

1. It's measured by where the players feet are at the time, and not any other part of the body. It's called football.

The trouble is, wherever it's measured from there will always be marginal calls, it'll just be the player's foot that is mm ahead rather than their arm or whatever. I'm not sure where it's measured from is exactly the issue.

 

[ska invita]

Did anyone see Spurs v Norwich? Norwich got a VAR goal disallowed for offside even though it wasn't offside - as could be seen clearly on the screen. Bizarre decision.
Watch: Spurs are saved by another controversial VAR decision - Planet Football
the worst VAR decision yet IMO

My take on offside in general is it doesnt even matter if you are an armlength ahead - thats close enough. Offside rule is to stop goal hanging.

Conclusion of that is VAR shouldn't be used for offside decisions ever - linesman's word is enough.

Other incidents is fair enough, but the whole handball thing still needs a bit of sorting out

 

[skyscraper101]

They should just give each team 3 video appeals each. That's it. Then focus the rest of their tech on identifying racists, and sticking their mugs on giant screens.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They should just give each team 3 video appeals each. That's it. Then focus the rest of their tech on identifying racists, and sticking their mugs on giant screens.

Could that work in a free-flowing, continuous game like football? Who makes the appeal - the manager on the touchline isn't going to know, teams would need to start employing their own VAR staff to judge when to appeal. Plus there would be pointless appeals - you're drawing 0-0 with five minutes to go and the opposition scores: if you have a review left, you're just going to automatically appeal regardless just in case. This kind of thing happens in cricket and tennis, but in tennis, the review only takes a few seconds, while in cricket, it's a minute or so in the context of a game that lasts all day and whose live action only actually lasts a few minutes of that day anyway: most of cricket is in-between the action, and it's not so different in tennis.

Also, presumably you can only appeal when there is a break in play. What if the opposition breaks downfield and scores before you get the chance to appeal against your penalty shout being waved away? That whole passage of play, including what might be perhaps a brilliant goal, is chalked off.

Goal-line technology is great and was much needed, but I'm not sure any of the rest of it is working.

 

[skyscraper101]

Could that work in a free-flowing, continuous game like football? Who makes the appeal - the manager on the touchline isn't going to know, teams would need to start employing their own VAR staff to judge when to appeal. Plus there would be pointless appeals - you're drawing 0-0 with five minutes to go and the opposition scores: if you have a review left, you're just going to automatically appeal regardless just in case. This kind of thing happens in cricket and tennis, but in tennis, the review only takes a few seconds, while in cricket, it's a minute or so in the context of a game that lasts all day and whose live action only actually lasts a few minutes of that day anyway: most of cricket is in-between the action, and it's not so different in tennis.

Also, presumably you can only appeal when there is a break in play. What if the opposition breaks downfield and scores before you get the chance to appeal against your penalty shout being waved away? That whole passage of play, including what might be perhaps a brilliant goal, is chalked off.

Yep That's what'd make it all the more fun.

They should also introduce multi-ball round for when the game is dragging on at 80 minutes with no score.

 

[elbows]

VAR can still be absolutely fine in future, but the prem refs have made such a terrible job of it that I almost wonder if they have brought the system into disrepute deliberately.

Anyway todays disallowed Grealish goal has caused much fury and we've hardly even got started with todays games yet. Current VAR offside stuff so clearly unsustainable that I wonder how much longer they can carry on with it after today.

 

[elbows]

Speaking of disrepute, why did Professional Game Match Officials Ltd cover up the true reason for Bobby Madleys departure?

Bobby Madley: Former Premier League referee reveals he was sacked after filming video appearing to mock disabled person

Former Premier League referee Bobby Madley has revealed he was sacked after filming a video appearing to mock a disabled person.

In a blog post, Madley said he was dismissed in August 2018 for "gross misconduct on grounds of discrimination".

At the time, the Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL) said he had "decided to relocate due to a change in his personal circumstances".

 

[Badgers]

Wonder if there is a quick change planned or for the next season?