UVF Gunrunner Lindsay Robb Murdered

[likesfish]

the british army is many things sorting out NI was way beyond its pay scale.
although a UN peacekeeping force would have been even worse
either completely powerless i.e. the dutch at serebenica or the US military in somalia black hawk down over the shankhill or derry either way the paramilitarys would have really got a free reign.
I guess the problem would have been solved as there'd be no catholics left in the north

 

[foggypane]

the british army is many things sorting out NI was way beyond its pay scale.
although a UN peacekeeping force would have been even worse
either completely powerless i.e. the dutch at serebenica or the US military in somalia black hawk down over the shankhill or derry either way the paramilitarys would have really got a free reign.
I guess the problem would have been solved as there'd be no catholics left in the north

Unless the hypothetical UN 1980 force was mainly American - remember, this was before they realised what terrorism was, and a lot of them still thought the IRA were a bunch of jolly good chaps.

 

[Nigel]

well yes the RUC in general acted with a high degree of reserve (compared to anyother police force in similar circumstances) but lets not overlook their role in a) bringing on the troubles b) perpeuating it and the big one c) Special Branch.

Are you serious about this(RUC acting with a high degree of reserve), or just coming down off some strange hallucigenic drug after a new years binge?????

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I would have to say 20

Just noticed your repeat re-appearance. Banned again.

 

[revol68]

Are you serious about this(RUC acting with a high degree of reserve), or just coming down off some strange hallucigenic drug after a new years binge?????

comparatively.

I don't think it was anything to do with it's grand character blah blah but rather cos of the political situation.

I don't think anyone can doubt that the British states response to Northern Ireland was incredibly soft compared to it's record in other areas and other police forces in similar insurgent situations.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

I was against them fighting with impunity that was never afforded the republicans. Fighting with impunity??? Impunity to what? Check the records matey. 53 shootings by the RUC in 30 yrs. Can't think of any that were unjustified although I'm sure you can!!! I don't recall any incidents of RUC men going out on duty with the sole intention of killing republicans apart from that one off duty officer I mentioned. Over 300 of their own dead at the hands of the IRA. That to me shows remarkable restraintI was against the RUC being run by factions within the lol. Namely who please. I don't recall any member of the LOL giving me or anyone I knew orders. But obviousely you have read in a book somehwere that they did so please let me know who was giving the orders. Names please, there's a good boy

Honestly smash, you know me better than that.

Again, forgive spelling mistakes.

39 innocent catholics
18 Republican paramilitaries
3 Protestant civilians
3 Loyalist Paramilitaries.

Makes interesting reading does it not?

Do you still have a clear consience?


I really must get a fucking spellchecker that works

 

[foggypane]

Or just learn to spel

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Or just learn to spel

Got one now.

I take it your misspelling of spell was deliberate?

Or am I giving you too much credit.

I'm going to get wordweb now. New OS you see.

 

[foggypane]

Got one now.

I take it your misspelling of spell was deliberate?

Or am I giving you too much credit.

I'm going to get wordweb now. New OS you see.

oops/ I ment 'spell'

 

[oi2002]

That's a very useful little graphic. I havn't double checked it on Cain.

I'm a little surprised the native military only seem to have killed a couple of people a year during the troubles. If you compare the carnage created by the mainland military and the almost equal rate of murdered members you could draw the conclusion that the native military showed remarkable restraint. The natives of course ran far higher risks as they went home to their families and were often part time.

The other statistic interesting is the red handed fatties assault on the Catholic civilian population, killing civilains at twice the rate of Republicans despite the RAs frequent failure to avoid collateral damage when bombing.

How few terrorists got killed by the the other lots knuckle draggers is striking, a triffling, tit for tat, 40 or so, a good few of which will have been murders arranged between groups. None of these guys ever had any real defensive utility for their communities.

What's very odd is there are no recursive arrows. The Loyalists terrorists are espeacially fond of killing each other and PIRA's nutting squat must have killed at least a couple of dozen volunteers.

 

[likesfish]

the loyalists paramilitarys had the easyist time
uvf or whatever hq whats the plan lets go kill a taig end of planning session

 

[oi2002]

the loyalists paramilitarys had the easyist time
uvf or whatever hq whats the plan lets go kill a taig end of planning session

Now that's unfair. Being both gay and orca fat can leave a guy with issues.

 

[likesfish]

:d

 

[foggypane]

the loyalists paramilitarys had the easyist time
uvf or whatever hq whats the plan lets go kill a taig end of planning session

No. The plan was 'let's finish this huge pile of fried crap, THEN go and kill a taig. Then drink until we burst. For the Queen.'

 

[Nigel]

The credulous people you mention confuse 'orchestrated by the state' with 'helped at various levels by rogue elements in the security forces'.

Of course you could argue for ever about to what extent the State colluded with this, and there are plenty of examples where it was blatant and quite high up the tree.

To show what arseholes the Unionists can be, there are examples of the bigoted orange twats being so bigoted, and such twats, that they wouldn't even accept legitimate help where it was offered.

A source of mine was with a Scottsh regiment whose members had a substantial minority of catholics. He told me this tale - the RUC and UDR refused to take orders from 'green bastard' officers, and to patrol with 'fucking taig' soldiers. They were also suspected on strong evidence of passing times of patrols and even personal details of catholic soldiers to the Nationalist side.

It's that kind of blinkered moron who can't see the wood for the trees. Here on U75, even a simple statement like:


UVF Gunrunner Lindsay Robb Murdered

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another scumbag bites the dust. More slaughter within the loyalist family presumably.


is picked over for perceived orange/green taints. As if, one's own 'side' are somehow less blameworthy when they carry out wicked crimes than the other 'side' when they do similar.

Pathetic really.

If you perceive the British state as a monolithic body, I would presume that this would lead to such confusion. I am Leviathan, and my dominions are many!!!

The same could be perceived of the Protestant/Catholic communities.
Apart from SF claiming a Republican Socialist tradition, which is a leading factor in the tradition of the Provos; Irish Republicanism is a broad church, with support from Rightists both domestic and abroad: in America from Republicans to Fascist/NS. Celtic and Scandernavian Nationalists, elements of the Far Right in Britain and Ireland. For instance The Third Way trying to make links with Racialists, Youth Defence(Pro Life), alleged contact with individuals around RIRA/CIRA. The BNP article 'Neither Class Creed Or Race', is less anti Irish (if you fit into their steriotype) than NF C18 stuff around the time.

The same could be said of the Protestant community. I remember going to a Presbytarian Service on the outskirts of Derry walls a couple of years ago wearing an AFA t-shirt about a punch up in London, where apparentely much of the flute band were based. Most, in fact probably all of the congregation were completely anti fascist, o the argument of supporting British Democracy, claiming (dubiously in my opinion), that Protestants around the the outskirts of the Fountain Estate had been "ethnically cleansed". The PUP for all their sins (and their are many of them) had elements around them who were good trade unionists and left wing political activists. Ervine and Hutchinson for example, trying to make links with the Millies.

Now, as the IRA's Army Council has stated 'The War Is Over', do we: individuals who have given support, for one reason or another on the an anti imperialist platform give support to SF/PIRA in this stage of the game. Are we interested in supporting a movement, so uncritically, who has made deals with American Entrepreneurs who paty peanuts to Irish Workers, still involved with Gangsterism, do deals with Fiana Fail, are still involved in punishment beatings (although projects surrounding CSJ seem to be incredibly progressive).

 

[likesfish]

Nigels
fairly correct just look at the way the UDR got amgamate with the royal irrish rangers to become the royal irish regimen. now if the british state was compleletly pro loyalist that would never have happened.
although if the british state had given any thought from the late 40s to the late 60s about NI the troubles would never have happened

 

[foggypane]

Nigel, good post. From your (well informed?) perspective, and that of a broadly anti-paramilitary mainlander, pro-union with reservations, the current situation is quite distasteful in many ways. Seeing murderers let out of prison or not charged (from both sides) sticks in many throats.

Your post made me think of the final passage in Animal Farm, the pigs turning human. Over in 6C/NI though, perhaps the crappy situation now and foreseeable is better than the crappy situation over the past 30-40 years and offers more hope and opportunity?

 

[tollbar]

Some useful background to the story of Robbs death here:

http://www.sundayherald.com/53428

 

[cemertyone]

That the amount of innocent women and children that the IRA set out to kill with bombs like 'bloody friday' Do you remember that one cemertyone? A bit like Bloody Sunday but totally forgotten about. Or la mon, or Enniskillen. Then the deliberate targetting of innocent people in the Shankill fish and chip shop, everyone from 2yr olds to grandmothers killed (I remember some excuse about all the top loyalists being in the shop at the time. Obviousely some government issued spacecraft took them away just before the bomb went off.
I know the prods mostly targeted innocent people too, like i said they were scum

Maybe you are just annoyed because most of your trusted friends have turned out to be informers or you did not end up with as many Armani suits as Gerry and Co

Are we gonna get into the politics of recrimination here.....because for every event you have listed there`s one on the other side......

 

[fanta]

Now, as the IRA's Army Council has stated 'The War Is Over', do we: individuals who have given support, for one reason or another on the an anti imperialist platform give support to SF/PIRA in this stage of the game.

And what a fucking waste of time that was, huh?

Did SF/PIRA defeat 'imperialsim'? Er, no. (whatever they fucking meant by 'imperialism')

Was this 'imperialism' even the enemy? Er, no. Mostly, the enemy were their Protestant neighbours.

It is amazing that some people are still misguided enough to see the conflict as some sort of anti-imperialist struggle.

That is utter shit.

It was an ultimately pointless, internecine civil war.

Neighbour against neighbour.

 

[cathal marcs]

.

Neighbour against neighbour.

It was these neighbours with their kindness that led to the conditions for that bred the Provos at a time when the IRA where about as active members as a man and a dog and you know it.

 

[likesfish]

THe british state for some reason best left to themselves let them get on with it
One days work in the 50s could have stopped the whole tragic farce in its place.
Bizarrie set of circumstances a rump statelet with a minority trying to use force to overthrow the views of the majority
although to be fair the whole deathtoll from the troubles relocated to a surburb of say a us big city would be written off as a quiet year .
If it had'nt been nextdoor to the mainland and the British state for whatever reason could'nt piss off and leave it to stew the deathtoll would have been massive

 

[fanta]

It was these neighbours with their kindness that led to the conditions for that bred the Provos at a time when the IRA where about as active members as a man and a dog and you know it.

And that somehow justifies the violence and unhappiness that followed and continues?

 

[Nigel]

No Justice No Peace

So there has been no economic exploitation of Ireland over the last 300+ years.
Irish people depicted in the British media are'nt portrayed as having Subnormal intelligence, less than Human: Filthy Taigs/white Niggers.

Since the recent troubles the Catholic community have'nt been burnt out of their homes, civil rights movement NICRA/Peoples Democracy etc have'nt been crushed and armed struggle has'nt been forced on these oppressed communities.

Aristocracy of Labour for Protestant Community controlled by the Orange order at the behest of Catholics//Nationalist has'nt benefitted British Finance Capital.

If this is'nt impeerialism, what is?????????

 

[cemertyone]

So there has been no economic exploitation of Ireland over the last 300+ years.
Irish people depicted in the British media are'nt portrayed as having Subnormal intelligence, less than Human: Filthy Taigs/white Niggers.

Since the recent troubles the Catholic community have'nt been burnt out of their homes, civil rights movement NICRA/Peoples Democracy etc have'nt been crushed and armed struggle has'nt been forced on these oppressed communities.

Aristocracy of Labour for Protestant Community controlled by the Orange order at the behest of Catholics//Nationalist has'nt benefitted British Finance Capital.

If this is'nt impeerialism, what is?????????

Nigel...I fear that when your going up against " Fanta " and the like ( g8 is a typical example..ex-RUC.. refuses to acknowledge that they where anything but whiter than white..then read "jonty" Johnstons "in to the dark" and they go quite)...
But bless them..can you imagine the cheek of the Irish to resist their occupation by an external power.....and all that talk about if our boys did not defend the county then sure as fuck wouldn`t we all be speaking German now.......what can you say to these re-visionist tools....

 

[oi2002]

...Irish people depicted in the British media are'nt portrayed as having Subnormal intelligence, less than Human: Filthy Taigs/white Niggers.

True in these more enlightened times that treatment is now reserved for other strange lumpen creatures Ulster Protestants. Like the Nazis but with worse dress sense, if only whole fascist million of us could be magicked away Ireland would be an easily merchandised land of impish happy folk again.

Yankee venture capital and the Riverdance has changed so much.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

True in these more enlightened times that treatment is now reserved for other strange lumpen creatures Ulster Protestants. Like the Nazis but with worse dress sense, if only whole fascist million of us could be magicked away Ireland would be an easily merchandised land of impish happy folk again.

Yankee venture capital and the Riverdance has changed so much.

From where I'm sitting it's being reserved for the same old prey.
Like this pish.
Usual fact free bullshit from militant loyalists who don't even have the balls to admit they are militant loyalist.

 

[fanta]

So there has been no economic exploitation of Ireland over the last 300+ years.
Irish people depicted in the British media are'nt portrayed as having Subnormal intelligence, less than Human: Filthy Taigs/white Niggers.

Since the recent troubles the Catholic community have'nt been burnt out of their homes, civil rights movement NICRA/Peoples Democracy etc have'nt been crushed and armed struggle has'nt been forced on these oppressed communities.

Aristocracy of Labour for Protestant Community controlled by the Orange order at the behest of Catholics//Nationalist has'nt benefitted British Finance Capital.

If this is'nt impeerialism, what is?????????

Spare us the pseudo-Marxist lecture Nigel, we've all head it before but nobody apart from you, Cemertyone and a couple of other bods with a mangy dog on a string are buying that bollocks.

Nobody, including me, is denying that British imperialism in Ireland has ultimately been a disaster.

But don't you see how risible and utterly fucking daft people like you appear with your simplistic and deliberatly dishonest analysis?

Unionists and Republicans hate each other with the worst sort of seething murderous tribal anitpathy imaginable. The British ruling elite didn't help, in fact they started and compounded this with their intereference in the first place. No matter what the causes or what happened in the past, people like you either are unable to or unwilling to admit that this is a civil war. It is not a heroic war of national liberation, it is neighbour killing neighbour sometimes when they're only families apart.

I don't think that the British can do anything to solve this problem. Whether they stay put or go will make no difference. These people fucking hate each other to death.

Because of your limiting, blinkered archaic perspective, people like you don't have a real viable solution - but that doesn't stop you coming out with your Wolfie-Smith-wevoluionary-bullshit anyway...

...or maybe you do?

Go on then, tell us your solution for a resolution to this conflict and reconcialition between the two side?

 

[fanta]

But bless them..can you imagine the cheek of the Irish to resist their occupation by an external power.....

How?

By killing your neighbour?

By terrorising the guy you work with?

By beating some guy up because he was dating one of your lot?

Silly cunt.

 

[Nigel]

Spare us the pseudo-Marxist lecture Nigel, we've all head it before but nobody apart from you, Cemertyone and a couple of other bods with a mangy dog on a string are buying that bollocks.

Nobody, including me, is denying that British imperialism in Ireland has ultimately been a disaster.

But don't you see how risible and utterly fucking daft people like you appear with your simplistic and deliberatly dishonest analysis?

Unionists and Republicans hate each other with the worst sort of seething murderous tribal anitpathy imaginable. The British ruling elite didn't help, in fact they started and compounded this with their intereference in the first place. No matter what the causes or what happened in the past, people like you either are unable to or unwilling to admit that this is a civil war. It is not a heroic war of national liberation, it is neighbour killing neighbour sometimes when they're only families apart.

I don't think that the British can do anything to solve this problem. Whether they stay put or go will make no difference. These people fucking hate each other to death.

Because of your limiting, blinkered archaic perspective, people like you don't have a real viable solution - but that doesn't stop you coming out with your Wolfie-Smith-wevoluionary-bullshit anyway...

...or maybe you do?

Go on then, tell us your solution for a resolution to this conflict and reconcialition between the two side?

THEY COULD START BY GETTING THE FUCK OUT OF IRELAND AND ITS AFFAIRS!!!!!!