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Lindsay Hoyle's time is up

Allowing the people of Chorley to decide between Hoyle (Ind used to be Lab) and
Starmer stooge (Lab) would open up debate
 
littlebabyjesus said:
As for the SNP being 'bitchslapped', what happened yesterday will have done them no harm at all among the electorate. Yesterday's debacle is a good example of how it is possible to lose by winning the wrong way. It seems to be something of a Starmer speciality.
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As I said on the other thread:
Pyrrhic victory. He 'won' on the political procedure front (which no-one apart from politicians gives a fuck about) but made himself and his party look like complete politicking cunts to everyone else. Yay.
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littlebabyjesus said:
It was an opposition day motion. These things are mostly symbolic so why not use it to make a stand on Gaza? In terms of pressure on Israel, every little helps. At the very least, it doesn't do any harm.
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It may not cause harm, but it cost you and me money. I'd rather they spent their time and my money trying to sort out things that can be sorted out rather than idle posturing. Once the UK is all tip top and perfect, then they can indulge themselves with that crap, on their own time, until then though, stop it.
 
How can you say :
That this House believes that an Israeli ground offensive in Rafah risks catastrophic humanitarian consequences and therefore must not take place; notes the intolerable loss of Palestinian life, the majority being women and children; condemns the terrorism of Hamas who continue to hold hostages; supports Australia, Canada and New Zealand’s calls for Hamas to release and return all hostages and for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, which means an immediate stop to the fighting and a ceasefire that lasts and is observed by all sides, noting that Israel cannot be expected to cease fighting if Hamas continues with violence and that Israelis have the right to the assurance that the horror of 7 October 2023 cannot happen again; therefore supports diplomatic mediation efforts to achieve a lasting ceasefire; demands that rapid and unimpeded humanitarian relief is provided in Gaza; further demands an end to settlement expansion and violence; urges Israel to comply with the International Court of Justice’s provisional measures; calls for the UN Security Council to meet urgently; and urges all international partners to work together to establish a diplomatic process to deliver the peace of a two-state solution, with a safe and secure Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state, including working with international partners to recognise a Palestinian state as a contribution to rather than outcome of that process, because statehood is the inalienable right of the Palestinian people and not in the gift of any neighbour.

is politicing?
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
It may not cause harm, but it cost you and me money. I'd rather they spent their time and my money trying to sort out things that can be sorted out rather than idle posturing. Once the UK is all tip top and perfect, then they can indulge themselves with that crap, on their own time, until then though, stop it.
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You could wear a baseball cap with Make UK Great again.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Good faith or not, it's utterly meaningless, what next, a vote on whether Russia should pull out of Ukraine, the Houthis to stop attacking ships? Israel are not going to pay a blind bit of attention to what a cruddy group of British MPs vote on or not.
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the tories have a majority of 80, so, by this logic, there is no point even having an opposition day motion, it's going to lose. Except it doesn't always work out like that, of course.

And it can make a difference - on how the UK's UN representative votes, as a bit more pressure from what has been one of Israels biggest supporters, or even just in giving the Palestinian people a bit more hope. A much better way to spend a couple of hours than most parliamentary business.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Scuppering debates and votes is not a good look. How many of the millions of Labour voters who are already disgusted by the Labour Party position on Gaza are now even more angry about it? Starmer is a hapless politician, and yesterday was a good example of that.
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He'll have weighed up the risk/reward. On the one hand, the SNP force a vote which splits the PLP and the media go to town on it. Cue months of wrangling and infighting and a possible Labour meltdown a la Corbyn just when they least need it. OR, he gets in first and nips it in the bud while being able to say they 'voted for a ceasefire'

I'm not defending it or saying it's right, I'm just wagering that's where his head is at. And I'm also willing to bet it's not going to be a significant poll shifter come the GE.
 
skyscraper101 said:
He'll have weighed up the risk/reward. On the one hand, the SNP force a vote which splits the PLP and the media go to town on it. Cue months of wrangling and infighting and a possible Labour meltdown a la Corbyn just when they least need it. OR, he gets in first and nips it in the bud while being able to say they 'voted for a ceasefire'

I'm not defending it or saying it's right, I'm just wagering that's where his head is at. And I'm also willing to bet it's not going to be a significant poll shifter come the GE.
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Or, you know, he joins the call for an immediate ceasefire? Just a thought.

The one thing that definitely hasn't happened is that people have woken up today thinking 'ah, Labour voted for a ceasefire last night. Good on them'.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Or, you know, he joins the call for an immediate ceasefire? Just a thought.

The one thing that definitely hasn't happened is that people have woken up today thinking 'ah, Labour voted for a ceasefire last night. Good on them'.
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Of course but he's being all PM in waiting, aligning with the US, etc. innit.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
That's not how I see it.

SNP proposed a motion, as was their right, and Labour refused to engage with the SNP beforehand to sort a joint position. Reality is that the SNP and Starmer don't have a joint position on Gaza as the SNP thinks what Israel are doing is wrong and want them to stop immediately, and have been prepared to say so publicly for months now.

Clearly lots of people won't have been paying close attention, but this idiocy did achieve a few things: it publicised the SNP's position, in case people had missed it; it showed up Labour as not really having a position, in case people had missed it; and it exposed Starmer as willing to engage in bullying tactics in order to get his way and scupper a vote.

Scuppering debates and votes is not a good look. How many of the millions of Labour voters who are already disgusted by the Labour Party position on Gaza are now even more angry about it? Starmer is a hapless politician, and yesterday was a good example of that.

As for the SNP being 'bitchslapped', what happened yesterday will have done them no harm at all among the electorate. Yesterday's debacle is a good example of how it is possible to lose by winning the wrong way. It seems to be something of a Starmer speciality.
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And who will the Labour supporters vote for in a few months time?

The whole thing is an utter farce, the behaviour of SNP and Conservative MPs was disgraceful, more in line with petulant children than elected representatives.

Although it makes not a scintilla of difference to the situation in Gaza, the SNP motion should have been supported.

As regards the UN, I feel that certain posters have fallen into the trap of feeling that the UKs view is of some importance, it isn't.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
In many parts of the country, including mine, a sizeable chunk will vote for whoever stands against them on pro-Palestinian ticket. How many? We'll see. In its current iteration, Labour is a strange party in that its leadership despises its base.
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The irony is that if losing a few seats in areas with a high Muslim population stops Labour getting a majority, they'll have to go cap in hand to the SNP.
 
Wilf said:
The irony is that if losing a few seats in areas with a high Muslim population stops Labour getting a majority, they'll have to go cap in hand to the SNP.
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That's the hope. Starmer losing his seat is the dream.

At least they've given me a reason to go out and vote. ;)
 
littlebabyjesus said:
In many parts of the country, including mine, a sizeable chunk will vote for whoever stands against them on pro-Palestinian ticket. How many? We'll see. In its current iteration, Labour is a strange party in that its leadership despises its base.
Click to expand...

I hope people realise that by blocking Labour from winning seats, we could end up with the same party in government?
 
Wilf said:
The irony is that if losing a few seats in areas with a high Muslim population stops Labour getting a majority, they'll have to go cap in hand to the SNP.
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The polling indicates that the SNP is going to lose about thirty seats. This far out... who knows.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
In many parts of the country, including mine, a sizeable chunk will vote for whoever stands against them on pro-Palestinian ticket. How many? We'll see. In its current iteration, Labour is a strange party in that its leadership despises its base.
Click to expand...

Labour’s leadership despises its activists, not its base. As do all party leaderships. And with good reason.
 
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