urban Lib Dem voters! What do you think of what's going on?

[danny la rouge]

if some sort of rainbow* coalition needs them to do so, I believe there would be a major backlash.

From whom? And might that, perhaps, be in the minds of the SNP and Plaid as a result?

The thing is that the Nats have an answer to the West Lothian Question - independence. It's the unionist who don't.

 

[claphamboy]

Indeed. But there is no "moral" imperative to side with the Tories. None at all. All this is about is arithmetic, and what Clegg and his party eventually decide is in their interests.

I agree there's no moral reason to side with the Tories, but there is a moral reason for him to talk to them first - that has been my point all along.

 

[danny la rouge]

I agree there's no moral reason to side with the Tories, but there is a moral reason for him to talk to them first - that has been my point all along.

There's a tactical reason to talk to him first.

So your point all along was just that 'he had to talk to the Tories'? Not exactly a revelation, is it?

 

[claphamboy]

From whom? And might that, perhaps, be in the minds of the SNP and Plaid as a result?

From the English. How could Labour & the LibDems claim to support a fairer system, if they can only pass laws by the support of those that don't represent the nation that it applies to?

The thing is that the Nats have an answer to the West Lothian Question - independence. It's the unionist who don't.

Agreed, but a backlash against the Nats voting on English issues would likely produce a simple answer to the problem - a ban on them voting on English only matters.

 

[claphamboy]

There's a tactical reason to talk to him first.

So your point all along was just that 'he had to talk to the Tories'? Not exactly a revelation, is it?

No, it's a moral reason, because that is what he promised he would do.

Yet, many on here, and it seems some that even voted LibDem thinks he has sold out by doing so.

 

[Spymaster]

What cracks me up is all these LibDem voters that are now somehow surprised that Clegg's sided with Cameron. I voted Libdem because I knew he would in this situation and am reasonably pleased with the result.

 

[_angel_]

What cracks me up is all these LibDem voters that are now somehow surprised that Clegg's sided with Cameron. I voted Libdem because I knew he would in this situation and am reasonably pleased with the result.

Why didn't you just vote tory then??

 

[butchersapron]

No, it's a moral reason, because that is what he promised he would do.

Yet, many on here, and it seems some that even voted LibDem thinks he has sold out by doing so.

That doesn't make it 'moral' in terms of being right. Since when has Nick Clegg decided what my or anyone else's morals are? Any tory govt ever is immoral in my opinion.

You're all over the shop in your despairing defence of Clegg and his tories here -and sorry, no, but i voted Green doesn't wash. You want a whig-tory coalition but you're pretending that you're simply sorrowfully describing at as most likely. It's clear to everyone by now that you're really really not.

 

[Spymaster]

Why didn't you just vote tory then??

a) Because I'm not a tory.

b) Voting tory in my ward would mean voting for the odious Joanne Cash.

c) My priority was ousting labour.

 

[stethoscope]

a) Because I'm not a tory.

b) Voting tory in my ward would mean voting for the odious Joanne Cash.

c) My priority was ousting labour.

Did you vote Lib Dem purely because they weren't the other two, or because you find yourself aligned to much of their policies/principles?

 

[claphamboy]

That doesn't make it 'moral' in terms of being right.

So, the right thing would be to do the opposite to what he said he would do?

You clearly must define 'right' very differently to the rest of the world.

You're all over the shop in your despairing defence of Clegg and his tories here -and sorry, no, but i voted Green doesn't wash. You want a whig-tory coalition but you're pretending that you're simply sorrowfully describing at as most likely. It's clear to everyone by now that you're really really not.

I've held and expressed the same position from the very beginning, and your attempt at mind-reading over the internet doesn't wash with me.

BA earlier:

 

[socialist]

Don't they make a lovely couple?

 

[butchersapron]

So, the right thing would be to do the opposite to what he said he would do?

You clearly must define 'right' very differently to the rest of the world.

He said a variety of things. He played the politicians game of keeping all option open. You've decided for your own reasons that one thing he said is the only thing he said.

 

[claphamboy]

He said a variety of things. He played the politicians game of keeping all option open. You've decided for your own reasons that one thing he said is the only thing he said.

When pushed on this issue he only said one thing - he would talk to the party with the largest mandate first.

That only left open what he would consider to be 'the largest mandate', i.e. in terms of seats or votes, but that option for wiggle was removed by the hand he was dealt.

If you insist on believing he said something else on this issue perhaps you would like to provide a link to back that up?

 

[butchersapron]

When pushed on this issue he only said one thing - he would talk to the party with the largest mandate first.

That only left open what he would consider to be 'the largest mandate', i.e. in terms of seats or votes, but that option for wiggle was removed by the hand he was dealt.

If you insist on believing he said something else on this issue perhaps you would like to provide a link to back that up?

When pushed? Would that mean the time he said what you want to hear? All the other times when asked he wasn't pushed - not really. Desperate

Don't need links - you have a memory (you've 99% confirmed what i say above anyway) so do i and so do the other posters.

 

[Spymaster]

Did you vote Lib Dem purely because they weren't the other two, or because you find yourself aligned to much of their policies/principles?

The latter, and I will admit to having more hope for the tory plan for economic recovery than anything else tabled.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But where are the principles in that stand? What if the BNP had had the 'largest mandate'? Isn't libdem bleating on pr based on the fact that the number of seats in parliament does not represent a legitimate mandate? Libdem + lab vote was over 50% – should he not be looking at which party the libdems' policies fit with first?

His position as it stands is amoral – it is an abdication of the principle of having principles.

 

[butchersapron]

Excellent, Hughes not talking of 'political reform' not 'electoral reform' on news 24. That's the phrase to look for today.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If the libdems will always negotiate with the bigger of the other two parties, a vote for the libdems is essentially an abstention.

 

[claphamboy]

When pushed? Would that mean the time he said what you want to hear? All the other times when asked he wasn't pushed - not really. Desperate

Don't need links - you have a memory (you've 99% confirmed what i say above anyway) so do i and so do the other posters.

FFS - he said it time and time again, he ever indicated any other position.

If you want to live in a bubble detached from reality, that's fine by me, I'll not waste my time engaging with you further.

What if the BNP had had the 'largest mandate'?

That was never going to happen in this election.

Isn't libdem bleating on pr based on the fact that the number of seats in parliament does not represent a legitimate mandate?

Which is, no doubt, why he said 'mandate' not 'seats'.

Libdem + lab vote was over 50%

This keeps coming up, I wish people would change the record, as it doesn't alter the fact that the Libdem + Tory vote was even higher.

– should he not be looking at which party the libdems' policies fit with first?

No, that would be going back on his word.

His position as it stands is amoral – it is an abdication of the principle of having principles.

And going back on his word wouldn't be?

 

[butchersapron]

He said many things over the last two weeks CP, there was running commentary across many threads as he changed what he said by the day. This is really not a controversial point. Narky lib-dems - it's getting closer...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

His word was amoral. He should never have said it – what it means is that "we (the libdems) don't stand for anything".

What ought to matter first and foremost is which of the two other parties the libdems are closer to – as the resulting coalition would more accurately represent the result of the election. Yet this is not even a consideration! What Clegg is doing now is neither proportional nor representative.

 

[Open Sauce]

Excellent, Hughes not talking of 'political reform' not 'electoral reform' on news 24. That's the phrase to look for today.

No change 'Political reform' are their words

 

[butchersapron]

Ah they had prepared the path already...even more devious and unprincipled.

 

[RaverDrew]

In my view the corruption of the Brown government is the worst since Horace Walpole in 1745.

If you were under heavy manners from JobCentre Plus like I am, I am sure you would agree.

I had a medical interview on Friday at Irene House in Balham. The place is like a fortress. There is a thick wooden door and video answerphone.

When you ring and tell them you have an appointment, the door is opened personally by an ATOL service security guard.

The receptionist was incredibly rude - obviously an understudy for Naomi Campbell. Didn't want to pay my bus fares, or those of my "supporter".

The doc himself was obviously uncomfortable with his role. I told him he was breaking his hippocratic oath even working there, and he did not challenge that.

I asked if he was a psychiatrist (as you will be aware I have mental problems). He admitted he was not a psychiatrist - just an ordinary doctor.

In fact I thought the interview with the doc went well - but I had taken the precaution of taking in my medical file - and volunteered my discharge certificate from Charter Nightingale Hospital. After that everything went well - until I came to claim my travel costs from Naomi Campbell.

On Monday I have an appointment with Ingeus at Elephant and Castle. One of Gordon's many PPP "Partners" to assess me for "Partner Led Pathways to Employment". The will get maybe £50 or £75, just for interviewing me.

They offer six week jobseeker courses which it is very difficult to turn down. They will be getting around £650-£1000 if I go on their course.

And me only out of work for less than 2 months so far - with a virtually unbroken work record of 33 YEARS up to now.

If you ring the London Bridge Job Centre Plus to quibble about being fed into the PPP Ingeus system, the staff refuse to give their full names. Only Christian names suc as "Jet", "Cheryl", or "Travis" are allowed apparently.

What are these people frightened of? They know where WE live, but we do not know where THEY live!

I am going to print out loads of stuff about Auschwitz and give them a lecture on it during the interview. The JobCentre Plus motto seems to be "Arbeit Macht Frei" so I think I have hit the nail on the head.

The doc understood that I am having a temporary nervous breakdown and will be fit again for work in a few months. Not the JobCentre. They have targets to meet. They don't care if I am a Finance Manager (my job title for the last 20 years) or a Toilet Cleaner.

I do hope that Cameron and Clegg manage to get rid of that evil toad in 10 Downing Street!

If I was a Pentecostalist I would be preaching about "the end times". Tony Blair = Anti Christ Gordon Brown = the BEAST with 9 horns etc.

Now I know why so many preachers in Brixton are unemployed people who have "Gone Off".

Don't worry about the Ingeus place in E&C, I went there last week, whenever they asked me about what I was interested in doing with them, I just explained (in a fairly loud voice ) about how scandalous it was that they were creaming money out of the benefits system. They sent me packing within about 2 mins flat.

Them: So what have you been doing to look for work ?

Me: What kind of a stupid question is that ? I'm off work sick until my Dr says otherwise, why the fuck would I be looking for work ? I think it's a scandal etc...

Them: Sorry for wasting your time, this obviously isn't the right place for... K thnx bye

Shame, is not a bad place really compared to the A4E shitholes, I was quite tempted by their offer of a free gym pass to get me motivated for work.... ho hum

 

[butchersapron]

Hmmm

Thirty-nine of the paltry 57 seats that the Lib Dems now hold are in constituencies where the Conservatives are strongly the second party. Eighteen are in constituencies where either Labour is strongly the second party, or the vote is divided between Labour and nationalist parties.

 

[free spirit]

I know there's a few Lib Dem voters here, so I'm interested to hear your response to Clegg's cuddling up to the Tories.

Do you now feel proud of your vote? Ashamed? Cheated? Delighted?

nervous.

I'm hoping that the talks with the tories will turn out to have largely been as part of getting a stronger bargaining position with labour. If it was anyone but clegg in charge, I'd be pretty confident that this would be the case, but clegg seems to have been moving the party to the right since becoming leader, so I'm not so sure.

if he does go in with the tories, I reckon it could easily break the party apart.

then again, there's a lot that labour have done when in power that's totally against lib dem principles - eg 28 days, complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition, ID cards, locking up assylum seekers, Iraq war etc. so it depends on whether labour is prepared to sort it's act out on these and other issues or not really, because these are not minor issues.

 

[CH1]

Therapy

Fran, if you read CH1's posting history within the last week or so, he starts off semi-coherent and then just descends into utter bizarre pseudo-religious ranting.

I did this (i.e. rant mystically) to someone from IPSOS/MORI last week and she asked how much I paid for my therapy at the Maudsley! Do you people think about nothing but money???

 

[stethoscope]

Do you people think about nothing but money???

 

[butchersapron]

Lead lib-dem negotiator is the ex-head of JP Morgan.

Let's fuck this place up. Let's bring the change.