urban Lib Dem voters! What do you think of what's going on?

[butchersapron]

9 hours of talks and more tmw - yeah, that sounds like it's a lib-dem trick to make it look like they're being fair. Laws is sitting there going have we waited long enough to make it look real yet? I bet that's it. IT HAS TO BE!

 

[ernestolynch]

They're all playin soggy biscuit, bloomin toffs.

 

[Stibs]

I am a Labour voter by upbringing and inclination. A fairly old fashioned socialist. I voted Labour in 92 and 97. But as New Labour spun off to the weird margins of Thatcherite toss and slavish adherence to the American far right agenda, I voted "to the left" by voting LibDem. They were never revolutionary. They were boring middle class wannabes and do-gooders who paid lip service to gay rights, weakly opposed war and nuclear weapons, wanted meagre tax rises to help the most vulnerable. They were crappily left wing, but nontheless, were leftwing.

This time, I revised my expectations down as to what my vote could achieve. My constituency is Salford...........Hazel Blears. Its a Lab/LibDem fight. I voted Labour because Clegg wouldn't rule out a deal with Cameron in a hung Parliament. I suppose I achieved my aim of voting anti-Tory.

Does that make me smug? Hardly. Once Gordon Brown plays out his last tragic act and resigns, Hazel Blears, a Blairite, whom I voted back to Parliament, will help to install another Blairite..........most probably David Milliband........and the front benches will be led by 3 Blair clones, circle-jerking over the finer details of PFI.

The people I'm angry with are those who live in LibDem/Tory marginals, but preciously voted Labour. Had the LibDems taken just 10 seats off the Tories, then the maths would have been possible for an anti-Tory coallition, and the pressure from within his party would have stopped Clegg doing a deal with vermin. As it is, Clegg has to install Cameron. How enthusiastically will the Liberals do it? That will be the determining factor in how much of my absolute loathing of Tories I eventually pin on them.

Well, that got that off my chest.....

 

[danny la rouge]

From the English.

Exactly. That's what I said - don't you think the Nats know that? Don't you think it might be part of their strategy to create friction between the parliaments?

 

[CH1]

Brixton libertarian anarchist

The people I'm angry with are those who live in LibDem/Tory marginals, but preciously voted Labour. Had the LibDems taken just 10 seats off the Tories, then the maths would have been possible for an anti-Tory coallition, and the pressure from within his party would have stopped Clegg doing a deal with vermin. As it is, Clegg has to install Cameron.

Couldn't have put it better myself (except for the vermin bit)

 

[Stibs]

"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin."

Aneurin Bevan

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

not sure - will see what happens. they're in a difficult position... as i'm worried that a lib/lab/random coalition would just nosedive at the next election...

 

[stethoscope]

The people I'm angry with are those who live in LibDem/Tory marginals, but preciously voted Labour. Had the LibDems taken just 10 seats off the Tories, then the maths would have been possible for an anti-Tory coallition, and the pressure from within his party would have stopped Clegg doing a deal with vermin. As it is, Clegg has to install Cameron. How enthusiastically will the Liberals do it? That will be the determining factor in how much of my absolute loathing of Tories I eventually pin on them.

I'm not convinced it was those that 'preciously voted Labour' that really did this, but just a collapse in the Lib Dem vote when it mattered (if we are to believe it was a collapse rather than just the media overhyping Clegg and the Lib Dems chances on the back of the TV debates).

Also, Clegg doesn't have to install Cameron at all. Clegg could have simply left the Tories to run with a minority government - which is what I would have thought a party of any principle so diametrically opposed to the Tories would have done anyway. As it is, all I see is Clegg desperately placing his own desire to be a 'deal breaker' above what the Lib Dems stands for as a party. For three days now we've been told that there has been meaningful discussion between the Tories and Libs, and yet every Tory I've seen on telly has continually re-stated that there will not be the fundamental backing down of voting reform that Clegg desires. Clegg meanwhile is now resorting to saying 'bear with us'!

 

[stupid kid]

I voted Lib Dem in Greenwich and Woolwich, realistically I knew the Lib Dem standing had very little chance of unseating the former minister, but ho hum, I wanted him out and I wanted a change in the voting system. As stated above by Stibs, I'd rather have some weak centre-left wiberal than some cunt who jumped in line to blow all our money on the Iraq and wagged his tail every other time his Labour party masters blew their dog whistle, all for a position as local government minister?

I calculated that my vote would be one of an increase of millions of votes for the lib dems that only won them maybe 10-15 extra seats, which would act as a loud advertisement for STV. As it happened, the effect of Cleggmania was probably what stopped the Lib Dem vote collapsing - however he's going some way to ensuring that happens in future.

I don't feel screwed personally, or upset by this, because I got what I wanted, a 'wasted' vote, but had I been voting in a Lib-Con marginal I would be really fucked off.

 

[butchersapron]

Where are these 10+ con/lib marginals where labour votes could have won the seats for the lib-dems?

And why on earth would Clegg with 67 seats be any more inclined to do a deal with labour than Clegg on 57? It's been clearly demonstrated the lib-dems have no ideological problem in working with the tories, formally or informally. They really have no natural inclination to work with labour (anymore).

They may well have had 20 years ago, but today the right wing orange book club run the thing - apart from Cable (former labour councillor now hard right anti-union bigot) no one (that i can think of anyway) in the leading group came through labour/SDP - their lead negotiator for example is the former head of JP Morgan rather than being a union bureaucrat. Their reference points are international economics, the city etc not what remains of the labour movement. This distorting view of them as on the left is a recipe for dashed hopes, it really is.

They'll work with whoever will leave them in whatever they consider to be the best situation for the lib-dems and no one else.

 

[rapattaque]

I know there's a few Lib Dem voters here, so I'm interested to hear your response to Clegg's cuddling up to the Tories.

Do you now feel proud of your vote? Ashamed? Cheated? Delighted?

Disappointed, not suprised and hopeful we may, just may, get PR out of it.

 

[stupid kid]

I meant natural Lib Dem voters in these areas would be fucked off. This is my experience of things on the ground round here. I voted back home in London, but I live in a university town where a lot of people actually bought the hype on Clegg, thought he was the best thing since sliced bread and not just another face in a suit, and they went out and voted accordingly. Current events are proving you right about the Lib Dems being willing to deal with the tories. Perhaps being surrounded by these people gave me a false impression of what was going to happen in Lib Dem vs tory areas, my hazy recollection of friday morning was that those marginals were varied but the tories got some huge swings and the LDs only managed a few small ones. I couldn't tell you what this variability means, but these people had a straight choice between LDs and tories, if they'd wanted the tories in power they could simply have voted for them instead.

You're right about the LDs in parliament being centre right, is this mirrored in the locals? I have no idea, but my experiences of meeting LD voters (one of my better friends is a big activist so I know a few) is they're not going to be pleased with carrying the tories over the threshold. For my part I've been laughed at when I suggested that Clegg was actually a closet tory. I agree, a lot of dashed hopes round here. The question is where would the LDs have been without these people? Because I don't think they'll forgotten what they see as a betrayal next time round.

As for an extra 10 seats, or even more, as many had been predicting up til thursday, it makes a Lib-Lab pact a lot more viable. Remember whilst you may have been sounding off here about all this, in the country at large, and especially amongst the newfound Cleggmaniacs, a lib-con pact was seen as highly unlikely. Interesting to see quite how these people choose to vote next time around.

 

[Stibs]

butchersapron....

I don't know the full list, but here's a few. Enough to allow a Lab/LibDem majority....

Hereford
Truro and Falmouth
Camborne and Redruth
Newton Abbot
Cornwall SE
York Outer

In each of these seats, the Labour vote is larger than the Tory majority.

My own personal disappointment from election night was the rejection of Evan Harris in Oxford W and Abingdon by fewer than 200 votes. Harris is more of a social democrat than most of the Labour front bench, perhaps the parliamentary party.

Yes, you're right. The LibDems are, in various places in the country, ambitious, venal, right-wing, and anti-union. They have attracted some fairly odd characters who aren't even human beings, nevermind being capable of running a country. But the LibDem manifesto regularly stands to the left of the Labour manifesto, and LibDems accept it, sign up to it, and campaign on it.

stephj

The maths of the situation are such that Clegg must put Cameron into power. Whether as a minority, or as a coallition. They are just a few seats....I think its 5.....short of a majority with Labour. "For the good of the country" Clegg is stuck with Cameron. What I meant was that he cannot be passive, or hostile to a Tory government.

I hope that he will choose to hand the Tories a minority government, which should be about enough rope to hang themselves, a period of opposition for Labour to, hopefully return to being social democrats instead of Thatcherites.

 

[butchersapron]

butchersapron....

I don't know the full list, but here's a few. Enough to allow a Lab/LibDem majority....

Hereford
Truro and Falmouth
Camborne and Redruth
Newton Abbot
Cornwall SE
York Outer

In each of these seats, the Labour vote is larger than the Tory majority.

Yes there is about ten where it was possible - add in totness, bournemouth west, weston and few others. This is utterly dwarfed though by the number of places where lib-dem voters could have put labour in. I've counted 10 in the first 15 labour target seats alone. So if your point is correct i think you need to aim your fire a little closer to home.

 

[Stibs]

I'm not a LibDem. I was born Labour, and I'll die Labour. I loned my vote to the LDs while my party was fighting colonial wars. And I agree, if LibDems had voted for a "progressive coallition" then there would have been no chance of a Tory government.

But its also true that if they had delivered a Labour majority, then they would have been shut out by partisans in the Labour government, just as they were when they voted tactically for Blair, and then were blocked from government by the Brownites.

I don't blame LibDems for voting for their party in Lab/Tory marginals. They owe Labour nothing. Especially Gordon Brown. But I do blame Labour voters for not voting anti-Tory in LibDem/Tory marginals. As I say, the most shortsighted choice on election day was made by Labour voters in Oxford, who voted against a decent social democrat in Evan Harris.

 

[stethoscope]

I don't blame LibDems for voting for their party in Lab/Tory marginals. They owe Labour nothing. Especially Gordon Brown. But I do blame Labour voters for not voting anti-Tory in LibDem/Tory marginals. As I say, the most shortsighted choice on election day was made by Labour voters in Oxford, who voted against a decent social democrat in Evan Harris.

Wut?! So, Libs can vote for their party in Lab/Tory marginals, but Lab voters can't when its a Lib/Tory ones? Perhaps some Lab supporters actually agree with NuLab and therefore vote for them accordingly... (or utterly refuse to vote Tory/Lib whatever).

 

[butchersapron]

Well your stance is entirely inconsistent and not rooted in reality then Stibs. If lib-dem voters owe labour nothing then labour voters owe the lib-dems nothing. If you wanted some sort of anti-tory coalition to be only one way in favour of the lib-dems then you're dreaming.

 

[chazegee]

Shit, so I've helped the Tories get in by voting Libdem and I've told my militant SNP neighbours who I'm voting.

This is why I don't normally vote.

 

[free spirit]

Yes there is about ten where it was possible - add in totness, bournemouth west, weston and few others. This is utterly dwarfed though by the number of places where lib-dem voters could have put labour in. I've counted 10 in the first 15 labour target seats alone. So if your point is correct i think you need to aim your fire a little closer to home.

true enough, and clegg basically scuppered this idea by coming out against tactical voting in the week before the election, when a few labour names had seemed like they were briefing in favour of it.

which does add to my niggling worry that he's basically a closet tory even if most of the rest of the party or it's voters aren't.

Having slept on it, I'm actually now thinking that it's probably more likely than not that we're going to end up with the lib dems supporting a tory government in coalition, or in minority government, because basically if cameron doesn't get the tories into power somehow, he's going to be absolutely shafted, and will be lucky to last a week. Therefore he's basically going to offer whatever he needs to offer to get the lib dems support, and realistically there is going to be a point where the offer becomes (at least at face value) too good for the lib dems to realistically turn them down.

The main stumbling block I could see to this would be the rest of the tory party, who may well not be prepared to back cameron if he has to give too much ground to the lib dems, or alternatively, the more left wing lib dem mps who could well block any deal with the tories if they've not got a shit load of concessions from them.

I still really hope that labour will pull something too good to turn down out of the bag, which would be a much easier sell to the lib dem party, if the guardian's right about it's membership being about 4:1 left wing vs right wing, which tallies with my (rather limited) experience of it.

 

[danny la rouge]

the more left wing lib dem mps who could well block any deal with the tories if they've not got a shit load of concessions from them.

Putting to one side the idea of "more left wing" Lib Dems, Ming Campbell was publicly briefing against a Tory deal yesterday. I think the Scottish LibDems will find it hard to sawllow, knowing how it's likely to play in the coming Holyrood elections.

 

[danny la rouge]

I still really hope that labour will pull something too good to turn down out of the bag,

Clegg just wasn't up for it. Labour has shown willing, but the LibDems haven't. They've just been using the Labour advances as leverage with the Tories.

 

[free spirit]

Clegg just wasn't up for it. Labour has shown willing, but the LibDems haven't. They've just been using the Labour advances as leverage with the Tories.

bear in mind that cleggs actually in a pretty shit position within the party. He's delivered less MP's than he started with, and basically fucked up the last 10 days of the campaign, and could easily get the boot if he tried to force through a lib / tory coalition without a pretty amazing offer from the tories.

 

[danny la rouge]

bear in mind that cleggs actually in a pretty shit position within the party. He's delivered less MP's than he started with, and basically fucked up the last 10 days of the campaign, and could easily get the boot if he tried to force through a lib / tory coalition without a pretty amazing offer from the tories.

I was using his name as shorthand. It must be more than just him pushing in this direction.

 

[free spirit]

I was using his name as shorthand. It must be more than just him pushing in this direction.

i'm sure it is, but the fact remains that he's still not going to have anywhere near the clout he would have done if he'd delivered 70-80 MP's.

In the words of my MP on thursday night after the exit polls were announced, he said he'd be utterly shocked if we didn't get over 27% of the vote and at least 80 MP's. Those MP's going back will have had the weekend to stew over the actual result, and I doubt many are going to be looking very favourably on clegg's public performance, and behind the scenes strategy over the last 10 days or so of the election.

There's not likely to be a leadership challenge at this point, but equally they aren't going to just follow him blindly wherever he chooses to lead them, and it could easily happen that some will work in the background to pull together a deal with labour, present him with a fait accomplis and dare him to either accept it or take both options to the party to decide on.

 

[danny la rouge]

There's not likely to be a leadership challenge at this point, but equally they aren't going to just follow him blindly wherever he chooses to lead them, and it could easily happen that some will work in the background to pull together a deal with labour, present him with a fait accomplis and dare him to either accept it or take both options to the party to decide on.

They've asked the Tories for 'clarification'. As I said in the other thread, I'm reading this as playing hard to get, rather than turning the deal down.

 

[CH1]

Cleggmania

they aren't going to just follow him blindly wherever he chooses to lead them

Don't agree. Haven't you seen the silent film about Lloyd George, made in 1918? The one which had to be withdrawn because MI5 thought he was verging on communism?

Very nice showing at the NFT about 5 years ago with pianist providing the atmosphere - all 2½ hours of it!

Bet it's available on Amazon by now.

We haven't had a Messiah since Lloyd George - Nick's the only one we've got!

 

[danny la rouge]

Lloyd George knew my father.

 

[past caring]

Father knew Lloyd George....

 

[free spirit]

They've asked the Tories for 'clarification'. As I said in the other thread, I'm reading this as playing hard to get, rather than turning the deal down.

oh ay, they've definitely not turned anything down, but that could easily be seen as a ploy to play for time, and allow back door negotiations with labour to take place now they've seen the tory offer.

I fully recognise I'm trying to see the best in this situation mind, but even though clegg's almost certainly got a hard on for the tories, I just can't see that being the case with enough of the rest of the top of the party to allow them to go with the tories without at least seeing what the best deal labour can offer would be (and how the other minor parties would react to this, as their support would be needed to make it work).

 

[danny la rouge]

Father knew Lloyd George....

Thank fuck. I thought I was out on a limb there.