understanding China better

[Jessiedog]

Definately time to bump "China".


And a sad rememberence of the loss of the "Original China Thread".


Blessings one and all.





Woof

 

[goldenecitrone]

We should send Morrissey over there as our cultural ambassador.

 

[likesfish]

bullshit about uk 3rd world poverty levels.
I've just signed on and have the grand total of £3 cash in the house have electic gas clean water and shed loads of food (thats why I have no cash ) on and internet and phone cable TV other reason.
kids get free education and healthcare I've a 3 bedroom semi detached house with central heating. council pays the rent and isn't obviously corrupt or hazadous to my health.
If your living 3rd world peasant standard in the uk its some how self imposed.
chinese people
chinese goverment scum of the worse order

 

[Jessiedog]

Just reread the whole thread - most of which is from 2005, over 5 years ago and my, oh, my, how things have changed in the last 5 years.

So fast.


How's about a bit of a recap/synopsis/summary (mostly from me of course - it's fun to read what I was thinking 5 years ago ) for those who may be new to the thread?



Some quotes from early 2005......

Is China a "free", democratic, country? Of course not. It's the GCDP (Great Capitalist Dictatorship of the People ). Are the 15 million peeps in Shenzhen and Zhuhai living in fear of the state, or any of its local organs? No. Are the people there pretty much free to do as they wish? Yup. Pretty much as free as HK, the UK or any such similar place. There are certain things that one shouldn't do - as there are anywhere, otherwise get on with things.

Am I philosophically opposed the the CCP and the political system in China? Yes I am. Do I want to see a more democratic China? Yes. Do I want certain laws and practices changed? Yes. Are there changes that I feel could and should happen immediately? Absolutely. Will China be a perfect society tomorrow? No. Ten years? No. Twenty years? Probably not. Is China today an immeasurably better place than it was thirty years ago? Undoubtedly. Will China be a better place ten years from now? I believe so. And in another ten after that I believe it will be a better place still. Am I doing my part to impact this country positively? I do what I can. Could and should I do more? Probably. Does what I do actually make any difference? I like to think I play a small role.

There are more than 1.3 billion people alive in this country. It is, therefore, my estimation that it is extremely important that China succeeds.



Woof

And a post from slaar .........

If you don't address the root causes (that some will always lose from capitalism and hence need to be compensated to prevent them going postal) and just try and crack down on the symptoms then it's ultimately counterproductive.

And I responded.

Yeah. I was thinking a bit about this tonite.....

There is no doubt that the Leadership are very concerned about these issues - they'd be fuckin' stoopid not to be.

The problem is, now that the Genie is well and truely out of the bottle and the contents of Pandora's box have bolted down the street (and down south to Guangdong), that it's a very difficult scenario to manage.

Endemic corruption swathed in intertwined and interconnecting layers and spirals of Guangxi and most, essentially, outside of the reach of those whose interests lie in curtailing it.

The Leadership, so far, are really not sure how to deal with this - they are rattled. The recent clampdown on all mediums of information-transmission, both into and within the country is, to a fair degree, a(n) (desperate,) attempt to stimey the spread of unrest and yet, ironically, or perhaps perversely, it is the media that, until recently, has been the most vigorous in weeding out corruption. It's a double edged sword.

In my view, the medicine needs to be taken sooner rather than later, corruption needs to be addressed in an effective way. The more that China liberalises, however, the further the spread of information, so greater and greater numbers of peeps are getting more and more impatient to get more of "their share" of the goodies and, to stop others (local officials and businessespeople,) stealing what they do have.

It really is balanced on a fine knife edge and, currently, stellar economic growth is the only thing holding everything together. Should this flounder (and there are many, MANY dangers to the global economy hovering around at the moment - it's prolly only a matter of time,) then China is in deep shit.

The Leadership needs to move very swiftly towards more effective control and curtailmant of the worst of the excesses rather than just trying to mop up the messes. Unfortunately, without the necessary infrastructure (free media, independent corruption agancy and judiciary, better pay for public servants, etc.) this is a daunting task. I reckon that there needs to be quite radical change within a decade or China will implode - perhaps sooner if the economy stumbles.

Really, we need to see concrete measures implemented within five years if we are to avoid a deterioration in social discontent.

And please God, let the economy continue to prosper, otherwise we're in deep doodoo.

China can absorb massive shocks (look at the country's exemplary behaviour during the "Asian Financial Crisis" in 1997/98,) but is also under barely imaginable pressures both internally and externally.

It's a knife edge alright!


A bit of a ramble as usual. Sorry.

But whatever......

Woof

It's been interesting reading stuff from half a decade ago.



Continued next post.






Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

An exchange with kyser-soze from 2006.........

However, it does little to 'counter' my opinion of China as being in a nascent stage of becoming an imperial power in the same mould as the US - use of soft power (companies, markets, culture) coupled with back channel use of hard power, or hard power thru proxies to achieve it's strategic aims of securing basic resources.

It's very difficult to predict whether China's stated goal of "Peaceful Rise", recently softened to "Peaceful Development" so as to avoid the use of any language that might alarm any westerners, is merely rhetoric. At least for the time being, however, and under the current leadership (Hu, Wen, et al), I think we can take China at her word.

Given China's meteoric economic development, the leadership's attention is clearly focussed upon managing the corresponding social problems engendered.

Currently sitting on a trillion US$ cash in the bank and with little qualms about dealing with obnoxious regimes in order to secure energy and raw material supplies, China is very well placed to continue on her current path (with the usual various caveats thrown in about the dangers of uneven economic development, a rising Gini Coefficient, environmental degradation, social disorder, endemic corruption, failing healthcare and welfare/pension services, etc, etc,) and to go from strength to strength without the need for external aggression.

Over the longer term, it's difficult to say, but I see no reason why any gigantic superpower should be any less belligerent than previous claimants to such status have proven to be.

What does interest me more however are the posts on Chinese culture - it fascinates me to look at a country that was basically Confuscian for 2500 years, was then wrenched apart by wars and the attempted regeneration based on a Western European's philosophy that had been around (then) for about 100 years, and now to see it in a bizarre and fascinating phase-space - not communist (or even Mao/Stalinist), not a democracy, not a Confucian society (altho as I understand it the legal system is still largely based on confucian principles?) and one that it once again having it's 'business spirit' re-awakened (from the histories I've read the Chinese have long been an industrious, hard working lot) is now undergoing huge economic growth of the kind not seen in Europe since the industrial revolution. So it intrigues me as to how the Chinese see themselves now - what are the bedrocks of the Chinese identity.

It's an intreging question that is being addressed both within China and by external commentators.

It's important not to underestimate the importance of the cultural revolution in shaping the modern Chinese psyche. During this decade, nobody went to secondary school or university, a whole generation of children lost their education. Pretty much all existing art, literature and "culture" was destroyed. Traditional bonds of kin and clan were shattered. Traditional values, religious and/or spiritual values, moral values, any fucking values, were virtually obliterated. The country was wracked with poverty, hunger and death. Millions were murdered and tens of millions brutalised.

The Cultural Revolution left China in a national state of shock, stripped of the values built-up over thousands of years. A nation bereft of history. A nation where friends and family could not and did not trust one another. A nation that was starving.

Two years after this utterly disasterous policy of Mao's was formally abandoned in 1976 saw the beginning of China's opening and the instigation and implementation of the Socialist Market Economy.

The only thing that mattered was the modicum of freedom that permitted an individual to earn enough money for food.

Nothing else.

Oh. Except for the ongoing impetous to flee China - ususally to HK, we soaked up about four million hungry migrants between 1937 and 1982.


Now - a single generation later - China is churning out more than 4 million university graduates a year (5 million expected next year) and only creating enough jobs for 2.75 of them (there's a million fresh graduates trying to get jobs as roadsweepers at the moment.

The impetous to make money has grown and grown as the chance to do so has spread from the core beginnings in Shenzhen, up the east coast, to about half of the population today. There are some 300 million "middle class" in China now.

This singleminded worship of the Yuan, unfettered by traditional, moral, religious or spiritual values, is a potent force. Whether it bodes well for China's sustainable development is another question entirely.

More importantly, and especially given the cover ups over bird flu, do any of the China lot think the government will be competent to deal with things like climate and water crises? China occupies a LOT of land, so global warming will start to impact on it more than many other countries - will the govt adopt a 3 Gorges approach and just say 'fuck it' and go all Katrina on people or are there the infrastructure and social controls to deal with the massive environmental problems the country will have to - indeed should be - dealing with at the moment, examples: the drying of the Yangtze and the massive pollution of the Yangtze and other major watercourses, a current problem; the estimates by some geologists that approximately 1/4 of the water table is now contaminated with heavy metals at levels that could be deemed as dangerous to the public.

The leadership is belatedly waking up to the looming environmental crises facing the country.

One of the "benefits" of dictatorship is the ability to "mandate" things quickly and the latest five-year-plan has emphasised sustainable development.

Ten thousand heavily polluting factories have been closed down in Guangdong Province over the last six months (although that leaves hundreds of thousands more ad those worst offenders that were closed will simply move to less developed, interior provinces) and the leadership is getting tougher on a whole range of environmental issues.

Unfortunately, the aforementioned corruption that goes hand-in-hand with the single minded pursuit of weath acts as a severe drag on attempts by the Central leadership to clamp down on nefarious environmental practices.

Running China is an extremely delicate balancing act and the leadership is paranoid about a free media reporting on economic, social, environmental, health-issue and, in particular, corruption problems. There is no doubt that such reporting creates social tensions and fosters social unrest - rightly so. Unfortunately, suppressing the media (again, particularly corruption reports since they piss-off the peasantry and the working and middle classes more than anything else - after all, corruption means less for them,) makes it that much easier for corrupt cadres and business owners to ply their destructive trades.


China remains a spectacular success story - the creation of a middle class of 300 million and the rasing from poverty of a further four hundred million, all within in a single generation, is not to be sniffed at.

As to whether the strains that the rate of development is placing on the environment as well as the psyche of the people can be managed in a sustainable fashion remains to be seen.

There will be many, many slips and falls as China rumbles forward and there's no guarantee that the country won't implode and enter another dark period for a decade or more. The (relatively) good news is that nobody wants this to happen and the vast majority of today's Chinese value stability above all else.

After all, you need stability in order to make money and it is this goal that pervades today's Collective Chinese Conciousness.

I'm an optimist on China. It won't be an easy path and there will be many, very difficult, setbacks, but it's difficult not to stand and wonder at the rate and depth of transformation the country is undergoing. The Genie is out of the bottle and China is headed where she is headed - fast! Managing the transformation is the key - and the most challenging - task.

And from early 2005 again.

Right now, right here in greater China, history is being written. History that will deeply influence the future course of events upon this planet. History is being carved out in the most profound of ways and I do feel it is a privilege to be right at the epicentre and, moreover, to be a tiny part of something that in some small and insignificant way, is actually making a difference, is actually acting as a force which is contributing to the shaping of events as they happen.

Definitely a good time to resurrect this thread - I'll try to update with my thoughts from 5 years on in due course.


I'm less optimistitic in some ways at the moment and more optimistic in others.

It's four shore that China is still the complex enigma it always has been and, still changing as fast as it has for the last 30 years.


Blessings all.





Woof

 

[Flavour]

Very difficult to judge... what strikes me as more interesting is how China will fare in an economic crisis (in particular, one that includes a credit crunch or the good old winds of creative destruction).

fuck me, you are a prophet. this post is from 2005!

 

[Jessiedog]

fuck me, you are a prophet. this post is from 2005!

Anyone with half a brain could see that one coming for a decade or more - it's only in the beginning stages right now.

The "financial crisis" will unfold over the next two or three decades.

The issue is how China will deal with it, and the answer is: so far so good - up to a point......

Chucking about a trillion US$ into easy credit has created a massive bubble here that's just beginning to unwind. Bejing still has another couple of trillion US$ cash in the bank (nominally) to play with. This will help bail out the banks again over the next five years.

The global system is fucked and China, macroeconomically, has been more prudent than "the west", but China faces problems on a scale that "the west" has never had to travail.


We all live in interesting times.




Woof

 

[toblerone3]

Just looked up the figures China's GDP grew 8.7% in 2009 in the depths of the recession and by more than 11% in the first half of this year.!!!

 

[yield]

Good to see you're still around Jessiedog.

On a slight tangent.
Thousands of vehicles stuck in 120km China traffic jam
BBC 3rd September.

More than 10,000 vehicles are stuck in a 120km (75-mile) traffic jam on China's Beijing to Tibet motorway.

The majority of the vehicles stuck in the jam, which began on Tuesday, are coal trucks heading to the capital.

A 100km traffic jam that had lasted nine days on the same motorway was cleared just over a week ago.

Looks like the infrastructure is reaching its current limits.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Here's something about China and chinese political tactics:

This week, 17 organizations and individuals wrote to the Minister of Foreign Affairs Lawrence Cannon requesting the government of Canada to declare Liu Shaohua, first secretary of the education section at the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa, to be persona non grata for his role in mobilizing Chinese students and scholars to suppress Canadian protesters.

Liu Shaohua was caught on tape asking Chinese students and scholars to fight a ‘political struggle’ during Hu Jingtao’s visit. He said “Falun Gong, Tibetan separatists, Uyghur separatists, and democracy people” were planning protests that would “sabotage” and “interfere with” Hu’s visit. He stated: “This is a battle that relates to defending the reputation of our motherland!” and whoever cannot come “must ask for leave from me.” He said the embassy will cover all expenses, but “do not talk about it outside.”

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/25430

This happened in Canada; he was talking to chinese students in Canada.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My name is Zhang Jiyan and I am wife of a diplomat at the Chinese embassy in Canada. I have recently left the embassy.

At this event to support 20 million who have quit the Chinese Communist Party and its affiliated organizations, I not only find it a great pleasure to see so many Chinese people awakening to say "no" to the Chinese Communist Party, but I also take pride in being one of them, and can stand forward today to let out the words that have been hidden in my heart.

In China, half of the population has been subject to persecution in one way or another in the so-called political movements. Since the Chinese Communist Party came to exist, 80 million Chinese nationals have been slaughtered. The Chinese Communist Party's depletion of the Chinese people's spiritual pursuit has been a persecution of the nation's soul, which is a destruction that has affected everyone. In replacement, the Party has used its communist ideology to poison the minds of the Chinese for several generations.

In particular, the persecution of Falun Gong, which teaches cultivation of Truth, Compassion, and Tolerance, has shattered the morals and conscience in the society. To date, more than 3,000 Falun Gong practitioners have been persecuted to death; tens of thousands of them are still being held in the Chinese labour camps and prisons, where they have been subject to cruelty, tortures, their lives in great danger, their organs harvested. This reveals the evil nature of the Chinese Communist Party and shall not be tolerated, in accordance with heavenly principles.

I am here calling for all the fellow Chinese to say NO to the Chinese Communist Party so that together we make ourselves free men and women who can hold our rights and the fate of our lives in our own hands

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/7-3-30/53561.html

 

[Descartes]

Yeah, reads as a typical CIA I wanna cause a revolution missive.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah, reads as a typical CIA I wanna cause a revolution missive.

Cool. So China is turning into the post WW2 USA?

 

[Yu_Gi_Oh]

Just reread the whole thread - most of which is from 2005, over 5 years ago and my, oh, my, how things have changed in the last 5 years.
It's been interesting reading stuff from half a decade ago.

Wow, I just read this entire thread too! It was fascinating to glimpse people's snapshots of life in China and also the political/economic analysis.

I moved to Nanjing last week with my husband for his job, so far it seems an experience which rings far more true to the descriptions on this thread rather than those I'd received from the press and other friends...

Obviously I've only been here a week so my observations are not going to be that groundbreaking and I'll reserve making any sweeping statements!

But Nanjing seems so clean. Pollution seemed to be something which was one everyone's mind when I said I was moving here, friends who had been to China told me I'd never see blue sky again, that my skin would turn black with dirt when I went outside, yet this hasn't been so. I can see the sky, the distant mountains, the stars at night. Milan, which I visited a couple of weeks ago, was much dirtier and I did end up with black feet from wearing flip-flops and that dodgy black snot which to me is a sign of pollution.

I've moved to China from South Korea so I find myself comparing them to each other rather than comparing China to England, where I'm from.

In Korea I lived in a very rural village, right on the coast, no train line, not much in the ways of facilities whereas Nanjing is of course a thriving metropolis of 7m people. In a lot of ways I feel as if I've moved into the future but I am aware that compared to a city like Seoul or Busan in Korea, there is more poverty, more beggars, it's a little rougher round the edges here from what I've seen so far.

I live opposite a construction site where they're building maybe 10 luxury high-rise flats, so I see how hard the builders are working, for insanely long hours, in the blazing heat. Yet in my small town in Korea they were also building flats in the blazing heat and I would see similar conditions for the workers, in fact I think that in some ways things seem safer here where they are at least wearing hard-hats!

People told me that the Chinese would be less kind to me, as a waygook/laowai and of course not living in a small community means that people are less interested in who I am and where I'm from and probably less motivated to make a good impression by giving me small favors such as offering me food. However I have had some acts of the same kind of generosity here too, a woman offered to share her umbrella with me a few days ago when it suddenly started pissing it down.

I may even be less of a freak here in China, the stares are the same, the giggles and the slowing down of cars to get a good look at me, but I hear less shouts or mutters of laowai here on the outskirts of the city than I did in Korea where I could hear every second person commenting on me.

I really liked this thread, though of course it seems to have tailed off a few years ago I was encouraged to post after it was bumped. What about a roll-call for Urbs in China right now, are there more or less and how are you enjoying it?

 

[machine cat]

I returned to China last week for a holiday after a three year absence. Albeit it was just a short period of time to be away, ut I can see a lot has changed. I'm in a small city in eastern Inner Mongolia with my wife's family and just from what we've seen in the past week, a lot of people seem richer and more content with what they have. The people we met 5 years ago who were so desperate to leave the country are now quite happy to stay due to the dramatic increase in jobs and living standards.

I leave for Shanghai and Suzhou tomorrow for a couple of days and then to Beijing for a week to see my old haunts.

What about a roll-call for Urbs in China right now, are there more or less and how are you enjoying it?

The only other urban poster apart from jessiedog I know in China is ninjaboy (ok, ex-urban poster ). He seems to enjoy his time here. Gonna meet up with the fella on Friday

 

[Yu_Gi_Oh]

Cool, say hey to Ninjaboy for me, we lived in S.Korea at the same time and had a mini Urban meet once.

 

[machine cat]

Good to see you're still around Jessiedog.

On a slight tangent.
Thousands of vehicles stuck in 120km China traffic jam
BBC 3rd September.


Looks like the infrastructure is reaching its current limits.

We drove past that last Sunday. The amount of coal trucks we passsed was insane.

A lot of them were overweight too, saw couple of police stings on the boarder of Inner Mongolia trying to get as many off the road as possible.

 

[machine cat]

Cool, say hey to Ninjaboy for me, we lived in S.Korea at the same time and had a mini Urban meet once.

Will do.

 

[Jessiedog]

Here's something about China and chinese political tactics:



http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/25430

This happened in Canada; he was talking to chinese students in Canada.

Hi JC,




It's nothing unusual for the Chinese govt. overseas to try to raise support for their cause.

I don't really see anything controversial in this.




Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/7-3-30/53561.html

And this is just typical Falun Gong rhetoric (they publish the Epoch Times).

The Falun Gong are merely a cult that drains money from it's largely elderly and poor adherants (and has always been such).

It's a busted flush on the mainland - it doesn't exist anymore. Beijing certainly stomped on the cult very hard in 1998/9 after it's boss went a bit too far, but since then it's been non-existent other than overseas.


We've been through this before, JC, Canadian poiticians have been naive in their support of the FG - it just isn't "news" anymore.

Their shrill rhetoric is not helping anything.

The mainland has many problems with respect to freedom of religion - the Falun Gong is not really an issue, it's a cult designed to milk money from uneducated people.

Most people in China (including most in HK and Taiwan,) shed few tears for the cult.

That said, we were concerned that it's naive followers were the ones being locked up while it's extremely wealthy leader was safe in the USA while encouraging his eldery devotees to conduct their pointless and futile challenge to the CCP.


Li Hongzhi is a cunt.

He knew what he was doing and he knew what would happen and yet he still threw his uneducated followers to the lion and encouraged them to be eaten.

He's a complete cunt - of the worst kind.




Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

What about a roll-call for Urbs in China right now, are there more or less and how are you enjoying it?

Rock Bottom is here - Shenzhen weekdays, Zhuhai weekends.

Anyone popping down south or passing through HK is welcome to stay for a few days at Jessiedog Mansions (which is, in fact, a wee groundfloor maisonette, at the foot of a mountain, in the middle of a rainforest, at the edge of a beautiful cove that runs out to the South China Sea - but less than an hour on the bus to the heart of the city).





Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Liu Xiabo wins the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize





I posted the below post on the Hong Kong thread, but thought it should also go on the China thread.......




Beijing has censored - as far as possible - any mention of the Nobel Peace Prize from the mainland (despite trumpeting the Science and other Prizes). The only easily available stuff is Beijing's response; e.g. "It's an abomination of the Peace Prize's mandate." "It glorifies criminals in China." "It's part of the western conspiricy to derail China's development." "Etc. Etc.".

There has, however, been a surprisingly strong response - mostly internet based - with 23 prominent, retired, former-high-ranking political and cultural officials signing an open letter calling for Liu's release (this was in the works before the award,) and other activists writing/publishing similar thoughts across the web. Further, about 200 intellectuals and activists have signed an open letter to Beijing (internet published,) saying that Liu was eminently suitable candidate to receive the award and calling for his immediate release.

Liu Xia is under house arrest and without phone(s) (although is managing to "tweet" her disgust at the authorties for doing so - tho' Twitter is generally unavailable on the mainland without a proxy), several activists have been detained and many dozens more are under heavy, 24 hour surveillance.

The CCP leadership (at least the conservative elements,) are Royally pissed off about this. It seems that they didn't believe that the Committee would dare to bestow the award on Xiabo. They are now madly running around tryiing to implement a damage limitation campaign.

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, that the awarding of the Peace Prize to Liu is the greatest "shot in the arm" with respect to morale boosting among the Chinese Activists scene, since the 1989 Tiananmen Square movement (before the tanks went in). It's really good news.

One of the main problems though is that, in general, peeps on the mainland only get the news that Beijing wants them to get and, in general, peeps really do buy the Party line. It's important to remember that, in addition to the original 300 signatories (including Liu), fewer than 10,000 souls have actually signed onto Charter '08 (the document co-authored by Liu that preciptated his arrest, "trial" and sentencing). For sure, many, many more would agree with the majority of its content and many more than that would agree with some of its content, BUT, it has been signed by only 0.00033% of the population.

The vast, VAST, VAST majority of Chinese in mainland China have never even heard of Liu Xiabo, let alone Charter '08 - this despite the fact of his Nobel Award - and, frankly, at this moment in time, the vast, VAST majority of Chinese wouldn't care less even if they did know of him.

Speaking to friends in Shanghai this week, the consensus seems to be that Liu Xiabo has always been a troublemaker, was definitely behaving seditiously and probably deserved what he got (11 years!).

Such is the outcome when a society lives under a system of heavy, continuous, ongoing media censorship.


It's also important to remember the innoccuos content of Charter '08. It basically called for the upholding of the Chinese Constitution with respect to freedom of speech and association. It called for the respect of individual property rights (particularly those of small farmers and peasants,) and protection from the state (typically corrupt local govt's,) in this regard. It called for greater democratisation and a pluralistic political system where political parties were allowed to be established and compete in elections. It called for the further (it's already policy,) privatisation of large State Owned Enterprises (SOE's) to help prevent monopolistic practice, corruption and State favouritism. It called for officials to be held to account for their personal corruption and nepotism. It called for greater freedom of the media in order to support the rooting out of Official corruption on a personal and systemic level.

And, critically, it emphasised its call for a NON-VIOLENT and entirely PEACEFUL movement towards these reforms.

Hardly radical stuff!


For co-authoring Charter '08, Liu Xiabo was detained for two years, incommunicado, without trial - and then, after a one-day "trial", was convicted of subversion (I think it was "publishing and spreading illegal, seditious materials", or somesuch,) and sentenced to 11 years in prison. A few dozen other signatories have been hassled, or fired, or put under 24 hour surveillance.

In China, there is a saying: "Killing the chicken to scare the monkey." Liu's case is a classic example of this tactic being employed by Beijing. His harsh sentence is meant to send out a "strong message" to everyone else involved in co-authoring / publishing / signing Charter '08 - and to anyone else who may be thinking of getting involved.


The consensus among political pundits in Hong Kong seems to be that Beijing will try to hush things up and quieten things down as quickly as possible and then try to avoid the issue entirely for a few years before quietly releasing Liu sometime; well in advance of his sentence being completed (say @ 5 - 6 years from now).


Liu is a very courageous man. He has been advocating peaceful, political change in China for over 25 years. He was one of the key people who, sensing imminent catastrophe, managed to convince thousands of students to leave Tiananmen Square on the night of 3rd June 1989, thus sparing them the murderous force of the military assault that killed so many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of their friends and colleagues on 4th June that year.



He really is a hero.


Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

What a travesty that the 2010 Nobel Peace Laureate will not be in Oslo tomorrow to collect his award.



Shame on the Leadership of the CCP in Beijing.

Fucking shame on the fuckers.

Disgusting.




FREE LIU XIABO!

Woof

 

[Rock Bottom]

Have you heard about China's alternative peace prize, the "Confucius Peace Prize"?

It is supposed to be in response to the Nobel prize. However, the ceremony didn't go too well. Apparently, the winner had not been notified...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8191835/Nobel-Peace-Prize-Confucius-prize-Never-heard-of-it-says-the-winner.html

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Honest question. Of the many of the hyper-exploited workers who don't even know who he is and if they did perhaps wouldn't see him as relevant, are there any of their 'own' doing serious time, been through worse for labour organising? JimW's the man?

 

[JimW]

Definitely Liu wouldn't be known by many outside small liberal circles. I think he's a fucking idiot myself (mad free-marketeer and gobshite, if with a decent prose style) but obviously don't support the way the state has treated him and think he should be freed immediately (and compensated). Meanwhile Zhao Dongmin, actual Party member locked up for his workers' rights advocacy, is only getting international attention in a few lefty circles. http://chinastudygroup.net/2010/10/zhao-dongmin/

 

[Captain Hurrah]

That's what I was thinking. Being crude, maybe chattering around a dinner table with liberal profs isn't perhaps the main thing on Chinese worker's minds.

 

[dennisr]

Definitely Liu wouldn't be known by many outside small liberal circles. I think he's a fucking idiot myself (mad free-marketeer and gobshite, if with a decent prose style) but obviously don't support the way the state has treated him and think he should be freed immediately (and compensated). Meanwhile Zhao Dongmin, actual Party member locked up for his workers' rights advocacy, is only getting international attention in a few lefty circles. http://chinastudygroup.net/2010/10/zhao-dongmin/

Yep - bit more on Zhao Dongmin here: State repression in China: The Case of Zhao Dongmin, leftist trade unionist - http://www.chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1207 and here: Shaanxi: Support the arrested Maoist trade unionist activist Zhao Dongmin - http://www.chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1231

The government is treading a fine line with the workers disputes that have occured over the last year but tu and other activists continue to face repression: China: Zhao Lianhai, tainted milk activist, launches hunger strike in prison - http://www.chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1254

 

[ernestolynch]

Yeah, can't see much 'woofing' in the West in support of Maoist dissidents.

 

[JimW]

Of course, now they've finally had to write a few articles attacking Liu, he will get better known and more of a following I expect as quite rightly people sympathise with anyone who get locked up for nothing. But he really did shoot himself in the foot with calls for three hundred years of colonialism etc. which the state press are making hay with right now.