Ukraine

[J Ed]

As a commenter on the Graunid article points out, in 2012 in the run up to Euro 2012 Svoboda were described as, "The city's ruling party, Svoboda, whose slogan is "one race, one nation, one fatherland", has been variously described as fascist, neo-Nazi and extreme. Members prefer to say they are nationalists and friends of Marine Le Pen's Front National."

Now they are "unsavoury elements" with "unpleasant views" who hold "complicated views about the wartime period"

 

[Casually Red]

thats a brilliant line from that confusion mongering little shite

Many people in western Ukraine do hold complicated views about the wartime period

 

[J Ed]

I wonder how much of a bolstering effect that this will have on the far-right in Europe now that the FN, BNP, Jobbik etc can point to the new found legitimacy of Svoboda

 

[Casually Red]

The SS hold had what many consider can be deeply entrenched opinions, resulting in a somewhat colourful reputation ,that some left wing commenators have regarded as unhelpful at times and has sparked some controversy here in Berlin.

 

[Casually Red]

I wonder how much of a bolstering effect that this will have on the far-right in Europe now that the FN, BNP, Jobbik etc can point to the new found legitimacy of Svoboda

They are the personification of freedom now, and thats not lost on the resurgent fash one bit . I think one of the right sector speeches from Yarosh spoke of their victory bringing not only of the resurrection of Ukraine but of Europe itself.

And Its not just that .Theyre in a position now to render real physical assistance to other fash. Or at least will be if they arent stopped.

 

[butchersapron]

14 Insane Moments From RT’s Coverage Of The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

 

[J Ed]

This is quite a PR job downplaying Svoboda and Right Sector http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexander-turchynov

No mention of anti-Semitism or racism or praise of the Waffen SS. You'd think Svoboda are basically UKIP or right wing back bench Tories.

 

[8ball]

14 Insane Moments From RT’s Coverage Of The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

It's basically Fox but syndicated to Russia, right?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It said "for now".

Do you think an asset freeze would be a good idea? Would it cause more pain for Putin or the UK? Would it achieve anything useful at the moment?

An asset freeze wouldn't work, for several reasons.
Prime among them would be that doing so would effectively chuck a bucket of iron filings in the well-lubricated gearbox of the world's economic system. Liquidity wouldn't be an issue, but reserves might be, if you could no longer count the deposits of some very large depositors.
Also, in terms of money management, the oligarchs will not, unless they're incredibly stupid/unsophisticated/badly-advised, have put all their financial eggs in one basket - they'll at best be hampered in a few areas, but certainly not throughout the entirety of the offshore world.

 

[ViolentPanda]

...why 'like' the fact that Russia has just test fired a dummy nuke Casually Red?

Phallic symbolism?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Proper cock waving from Vlad. Fuck me, it's not like the world's forgotten they have ICBM capabilities.

Next he'll be walking the streets of Moscow bare-chested, carrying an AKM.

 

[ViolentPanda]

butchersapron this is not for your discerning eyes as it was published on Friday.

http://www.jta.org/2014/02/28/news-...mmander-fights-in-the-streets-and-saves-lives

It's already been posted on the thread.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so we've now found the actual polar opposite definition of pouring oil on troubled waters. Test firing an ICBM during a tense international crises

Vladi has been watching the North Koreans and how they handle Japan.

 

[Pickman's model]

You really are king of the pedants, any more abilities?

better to be king of the pedants than king of the shitheap

 

[ViolentPanda]

That makes the test more explicable if that's the case. TBF if I were Vlad* and an American Carrier group were steaming towards my back yard, I would probably send them a 'stay the fuck out of this' signal as well.... To the best of my knowledge carriers don't go out unescorted -especially to a potential war zone -they'd probably be packing enough firepower to sink the entire Black sea fleet plus dispose of a sizable chunk of the locally based air forces. Don't carriers also carry tactical nukes as well?

...A worrying development all-round if that rumour happens to be true. No WAY would Russia allow a potentially hostile carrier group into the Black sea area, let alone two of them...





(*and as much of a macho nutjob)

TBF, the US usually has a fleet in the Med. Having a couple of ships cruise up through the Dardenelles Strait isn't such a big deal, and isn't in Russia's gift to deny. Greece and Turkey control access to the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Everyone calm down. There are no Russian troops occupying Crimea. I feel better now.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...loy-Crimea-will-not-be-annexed/4461393943060/

Yes, Vlad, 'cos obviously none of us ever learned about the Gleiwitz incident.

 

[goldenecitrone]

This is quite a PR job downplaying Svoboda and Right Sector http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexander-turchynov

No mention of anti-Semitism or racism or praise of the Waffen SS. You'd think Svoboda are basically UKIP or right wing back bench Tories.

They've really done a makeover job on the Pravy Sector guy, too. Not sinister enough for you?

 

[J Ed]

They've really done a makeover job on the Pravy Sector guy, too. Not sinister enough for you?

That's actually his most sympathetic picture.

 

[Nylock]

TBF, the US usually has a fleet in the Med. Having a couple of ships cruise up through the Dardenelles Strait isn't such a big deal, and isn't in Russia's gift to deny. Greece and Turkey control access to the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara.

True enough and this is ordinarily the case. However, we are way past 'ordinarily' at the moment and it wouldn't take a genius military analyst to surmise that there is only one way Russia would view two US carrier groups steaming into the black sea....

 

[classicdish]

"What you foreigners don't get is that those people in Maidan, they are fascists," said Alexander, a Simferopol resident drinking at a bar in the city on Monday night. "I mean, I am all for the superiority of the white race, and all that stuff, but I don't like fascists."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...krainian-rumours-anger-hate-crimea?CMP=twt_gu

 

[co-op]

True enough and this is ordinarily the case. However, we are way past 'ordinarily' at the moment and it wouldn't take a genius military analyst to surmise that there is only one way Russia would view two US carrier groups steaming into the black sea....

Which is the same reason it won't happen.

 

[co-op]

14 Insane Moments From RT’s Coverage Of The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

That's a pretty crap list of "14 insane moments";

4 - "accusing the US of hypocrisy over Iranian and Ukrainian nuclear weapons"

6 - "Russia is acting to protect Russians"

etc


There's only a couple of proper nonsense points in the whole list.

 

[Nylock]

Which is the same reason it won't happen.

I know it's unlikely to happen, I was just discussing the rumour expressed after that press conference and how it would be an extremely worrying development if true. I also wonder which irresponsible arse started it and why...

 

[ferrelhadley]

True enough and this is ordinarily the case. However, we are way past 'ordinarily' at the moment and it wouldn't take a genius military analyst to surmise that there is only one way Russia would view two US carrier groups steaming into the black sea....

There are many ways it could be seen. It might be seen that America has zero interest in starting an actual shooting war with two such valuable ships bottled up where they would be easy meat and their arrival is all bluff and no substance. Like firing a missile everyone knows no one would be dumb enough to use over something like the Crimea, big show.

CVN77 HWBush is currently in Greece.
The Nimitz is listed as being in 6th fleet operational area while one more in the Arabian Gulf.
http://www.gonavy.jp/CVLocation.html

The Americans certainly have the pieces on the board. How they chose to use them remains to be seen.

 

[Fez909]

There are many ways it could be seen. It might be seen that America has zero interest in starting an actual shooting war with two such valuable ships bottled up where they would be easy meat and their arrival is all bluff and no substance. Like firing a missile everyone knows no one would be dumb enough to use over something like the Crimea, big show.

CVN77 HWBush is currently in Greece.
The Nimitz is listed as being in 6th fleet operational area while one more in the Arabian Gulf.
http://www.gonavy.jp/CVLocation.html

The Americans certainly have the pieces on the board. How they chose to use them remains to be seen.

An American carrier battle group is never going to be "easy meat" no matter where they're situated.

They're also banned from entering the Black Sea under the terms of the Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits so it's not going to happen anyway.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Reports of US private military contractors arriving in Ukraine about 300 of them from Greystone LTD http://ruskline.ru/politnews/2014/0...brasyvayutsya_professionaly_iz_zapadnyh_chvk/. Don't know how reliable that Ukrainian article is, but it sounds like something the US would do in the current situation.

In other news the Mayor of Uzhgorod a Western Ukrainian city is in critical condition after being stabbed, despite being a member of the opposition he sounds quite left leaning, so my bets are another act of Right Sectors interpretation of lustration.

 

[classicdish]

...The Nimitz is listed as being in 6th fleet operational area while one more in the Arabian Gulf...

The Nimitz has been back in the US since December 16th. The next closest one after the USS HW Bush is the USS Harry S Truman, currently in the Indian Ocean.

Apparently the USS HW Bush is already within aircraft range of Ukraine so there is no need to transit into the Black Sea.

 

[mears]

I would imagine this crisis will encourage Europe to develop more of their domestic energy resources, including fracking.

relying on that corrupt group in Moscow to power your economy is not a good idea.

 

[classicdish]

In other news the Mayor of Uzhgorod a Western Ukrainian city is in critical condition after being stabbed, despite being a member of the opposition he sounds quite left leaning, so my bets are another act of Right Sectors interpretation of lustration.

Have you got a link for that story?

 

[alfajobrob]

The Nimitz has been back in the US since December 16th. The next closest one after the USS HW Bush is the USS Harry S Truman, currently in the Indian Ocean.

Apparently the USS HW Bush is already within aircraft range of Ukraine so there is no need to transit into the Black Sea.

Nothing is happening this way...the idea of an ACBG in this conflict is fucking hopefully laughable.

No one has the stomach for this conflict. Ruskie's have already taken Crimea. Then they will probably pull back slightly for issues re.currency whilst annexing bases and land etc.

I may be wrong....hope not, but I may check the betting sites for odds on this.