Ukraine

[Pickman's model]

I have. And I've found plenty of Russian condemnation but no significant EU condemnation.

what conclusion do you draw from this?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

what conclusion do you draw from this?

That you are a tiresome arse.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh piss off, you tiresome arse

you don't like it when you're shown not to have engaged brain before posting.

 

[butchersapron]

The immediate cancelling of the language law is one of the most disturbing developments, imo. It's a clear signal that even within the mainstream opposition, Ukrainian nationalism involves a definition of Ukrainian that includes 'doesn't speak Russian as a first language'. It is on this point that the EU has been spineless towards the Baltic states, telling them not to do this, but then doing nothing to stop them. I haven't heard condemnation of this act from the EU. Have I just missed it, or have they been silent of the matter.

The EU parliament passed a resolution calling for defence of language rights - among other things - earlier today. This is meaningless though.

 

[Idris2002]

The EU parliament passed a resolution calling for defence of language rights - among other things - earlier today. This is meaningless though.

Looks like minority and language rights comes some way down the list for the Brussels rubber-stampers.

 

[butchersapron]

Looks like minority and language rights comes some way down the list for the Brussels rubber-stampers.

Note it's a totally no-legislative resolution. It just allows them to point to their concern.

 

[Idris2002]

Note it's a totally no-legislative resolution. .

From an assembly that doesn't actually have the power to initiate legislation, IIRC.

 

[butchersapron]

From an assembly that doesn't actually have the power to initiate legislation, IIRC.

It sort of can but really can't. They can ask the Commission (the only body with the power) to initiate legislation on their resolutions - but they haven't even done that here.

 

[kebabking]

Now Russia says it doesn't question the territorial integrity of Ukraine:

http://rt.com/politics/russia-ukraine-crimea-status-678/...

with my cynical glasses on i noticed something in particular - firstly that while they said that as far as they are concerned Crimea is part of Ukraine, the undercurrent of the 'and it has all these links to Russia..' stuff was 'but perhaps it shouldn't be...'

if i was, for example, a Scottish politician in an independant Scotland attempting to dampen down fuss in Berwick-upon-Tweed about whether the border should be moved, i would not be saying 'no, Berwick is in England - though its people have a Scottish accent, shop in Scotland, go to university in Scotland, love Scotland and hate the English...'.*

not having a go at Scotland or suggesting they want to move the border, merely trying to find an example of what you would not be saying if moving the border wasn't on your radar...

 

[Idris2002]

with my cynical glasses on i noticed something in particular - firstly that while they said that as far as they are concerned Crimea is part of Ukraine, the undercurrent of the 'and it has all these links to Russia..' stuff was 'but perhaps it shouldn't be...'

if i was, for example, a Scottish politician in an independant Scotland attempting to dampen down fuss in Berwick-upon-Tweed about whether the border should be moved, i would not be saying 'no, Berwick is in England - though its people have a Scottish accent, shop in Scotland, go to university in Scotland, love Scotland and hate the English...'.*

not having a go at Scotland or suggesting they want to move the border, merely trying to find an example of what you would not be saying if moving the border wasn't on your radar...

"We didn't want to move the borders by force, but this sad duty was forced on us by the other side's extremism" - coming soon to a parliament near you.

 

[kebabking]

"We didn't want to move the borders by force, but this sad duty was forced on us by the other side's extremism" - coming soon to a parliament near you.

i have no Prime Ministerial ambitions...

 

[Idris2002]

i have no Prime Ministerial ambitions...

You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[frogwoman]

with my cynical glasses on i noticed something in particular - firstly that while they said that as far as they are concerned Crimea is part of Ukraine, the undercurrent of the 'and it has all these links to Russia..' stuff was 'but perhaps it shouldn't be...'

if i was, for example, a Scottish politician in an independant Scotland attempting to dampen down fuss in Berwick-upon-Tweed about whether the border should be moved, i would not be saying 'no, Berwick is in England - though its people have a Scottish accent, shop in Scotland, go to university in Scotland, love Scotland and hate the English...'.*

not having a go at Scotland or suggesting they want to move the border, merely trying to find an example of what you would not be saying if moving the border wasn't on your radar...

yep, got it in one there.

 

[Oisin123]

OT OT OT OT - someone back home told me that after several incidents of vandalism in the Jewish cemetery in Dublin, the Israeli embassy in Ireland asked the Chief Rabbi's office to hush the affair up.

Recently? Since these events in the Ukraine? Many years back my granddad's grave there was sprayed with a swastika but I've not heard of anything since. Mind you, I never go there.

 

[Idris2002]

Recently? Since these events in the Ukraine? Many years back my granddad's grave there was sprayed with a swastika but I've not heard of anything since. Mind you, I never go there.

No, in about three separate incidents over the past decade and a bit.

 

[Oisin123]

No, in about three separate incidents over the past decade and a bit.

Hmm. I'll ask about. Sounds like it might include mine, which wasn't hushed up at all. I made a point of highlighting it and there's a photo somewhere in an old edition of Socialist Worker. You would think that Ireland would suffer from the same kind of Golden Dawn type party as Greece, given the depth of the economic crisis but while I wouldn't be complacent about the opportunities for the far right a) at the moment the anti-government feeling is moving leftwards on the whole (insofar as Sinn Fein are left) and b) the secular far right here made a huge blunder when they allied themselves the the Catholic far right, who are largely discredited.

 

[Idris2002]

Hmm. I'll ask about. Sounds like it might include mine, which wasn't hushed up at all. I made a point of highlighting it and there's a photo somewhere in an old edition of Socialist Worker. You would think that Ireland would suffer from the same kind of Golden Dawn type party as Greece, given the depth of the economic crisis but while I wouldn't be complacent about the opportunities for the far right a) at the moment the anti-government feeling is moving leftwards on the whole (insofar as Sinn Fein are left) and b) the secular far right here made a huge blunder when they allied themselves the the Catholic far right, who are largely discredited.

I think the emerging far right niche in Ireland are enamoured of the whole Freeman of the Land shtick, which is too obviously loony to give them a leg up electorally (or so one would hope).

Back on topic, the Ukrainian far right seem to be still old school when it comes to conspiraloon stuff: they still sell the Protocols if the piece I read recently is right (I think it was in that people and nature thing in fact).

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The immediate cancelling of the language law is one of the most disturbing developments, imo. It's a clear signal that even within the mainstream opposition, Ukrainian nationalism involves a definition of Ukrainian that includes 'doesn't speak Russian as a first language'. It is on this point that the EU has been spineless towards the Baltic states, telling them not to do this, but then doing nothing to stop them. I haven't heard condemnation of this act from the EU. Have I just missed it, or have they been silent of the matter.

I wonder how Britain would react if, in a generation, 25% or more spoke Polish. What language rights would Britons be prepared to see granted to Polish speakers?

 

[likesfish]

a lot of their migs and artillery later turned out to be former DDR stock as well. The germans were uniquely placed to arm their croat allies to the teeth

That particular mark of tank was unique to the ddr

I wonder how Britain would react if, in a generation, 25% or more spoke Polish. What language rights would Britons be prepared to see granted to Polish speakers?

Think the big diffrence is in the baltic states they had no choice about when the russians turned up mob handed with tanks

 

[Teaboy]

I wonder how Britain would react if, in a generation, 25% or more spoke Polish. What language rights would Britons be prepared to see granted to Polish speakers?

The history of mainland Europe is far far far more complicated then what goes on in our little island, its a very bad comparison.

 

[J Ed]

I wonder how Britain would react if, in a generation, 25% or more spoke Polish. What language rights would Britons be prepared to see granted to Polish speakers?

What a stupid analogy

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The history of mainland Europe is far far far more complicated then what goes on in our little island, its a very bad comparison.

I live in a country that has been riven by language rights issues for centuries; people have died here over language rights. They might still cause the country to break apart.

Language issues are fundamental to societal values, and the existence of a strong position on language rights is not in and of itself a sign of fascism or what have you.

p.s. given the British response to immigration in general, I think the answer is clear as to how the general public would feel there about alteration to language rights.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wonder how Britain would react if, in a generation, 25% or more spoke Polish. What language rights would Britons be prepared to see granted to Polish speakers?

What are you on about here? There has been a significant Russian-speaking population in parts of Ukraine for hundreds of years.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I live in a country that has been riven by language rights issues for centuries; people have died here over language rights. They might still cause the country to break apart.

Language issues are fundamental to societal values, and the existence of a strong position on language rights is not in and of itself a sign of fascism or what have you.

p.s. given the British response to immigration in general, I think the answer is clear as to how the general public would feel there about alteration to language rights.

What is 'the British response to immigration in general'? Wtf do you know about it?

 

[Teaboy]

I live in a country that has been riven by language rights issues for centuries; people have died here over language rights. They might still cause the country to break apart.

Language issues are fundamental to societal values, and the existence of a strong position on language rights is not in and of itself a sign of fascism or what have you.

p.s. given the British response to immigration in general, I think the answer is clear as to how the general public would feel there about alteration to language rights.

But when you are talking about Europe you are talking about languages that pre-date the existence of the state, in fact pre-date the existence of the concept of a state as we know it today. Your example of North America is not even in the same sphere as the history of mainland Europe.

 

[butchersapron]

I wonder how Britain would react if, in a generation, 25% or more spoke Polish. What language rights would Britons be prepared to see granted to Polish speakers?

Why on earth have you posted this?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What are you on about here? There has been a significant Russian-speaking population in parts of Ukraine for hundreds of years.

The Sudeten Germans had been present in Czechoslovakia for hundreds of years.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But when you are talking about Europe you are talking about languages that pre-date the existence of the state, in fact pre-date the existence of the concept of a state as we know it today. Your example of North America is not even in the same sphere as the history of mainland Europe.

The same applies to the French/English conflict in what has become Canada.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Sudeten Germans had been present in Czechoslovakia for hundreds of years.

And? What does this have to do with granting Russian-speaking Ukrainian citizens certain language rights within a wider Ukrainian-speaking state?

Are you thinking that I'm thinking that Putin is justified to invade in order to protect ethnic Russians?

I'll grant you, that's one fuck-off Godwin's.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The same applies to the French/English conflict in what has become Canada.

And the French language has official status in Canada.

Where are you going with this?