Ukraine

[Casually Red]

during the riots there were near weekly reports of russian special forces heading for Kiev . All bollocks . From what I can see Russia definitely doesnt want sucked into this one and wants them all to calm down a bit and start talking . Which hopefully they will do eventually, although thats very much in the realm of hopeful right now .

While the coup administration hasnt yet officially banned their opponents the fash,,now the unofficial police.. have now methodically burned out over 500 of their offices and effectively driven them from public and political life in western ukraine . The ones that show up in the parliament have either been threatened into defecting..or get the crap kicked out of them for disagreeing right there in the parliament or the street outside.

The fash goon squads have their unofficial lists of traitors for arrest while Svoboda are now the cheif prosecutors compiling official lists. So dissent is being ruthlessly crushed, which pretty much means no talk .

But even if the IMF and EU USA bail the west out financially..then what . Their only means of generating income is in the east..half the population lives there ...and the people who buy their shit are Russia.
Are they going to be bailed out every month..they have to talk . But they are incapable of creating the conditions for talks.

But for now its pretty much a pogrom cum kristillnacht against the defenceless in western ukraine. Fascists they be hatin

 

[Casually Red]

now theyve gone and burned the Communist party leaders house down . Fash be having a pogrom .

 

[goldenecitrone]

flights to turkey are cheap as fuck . ill donate 50

You'll need it to get to Kiev to defend your beloved statue.

 

[pocketscience]

My irony radar just went into overdrive, imagining a scenario in 12 months time where the Bundeswehr are sent into the Ukraine by NATO to quelle anti -jewish fascist state agression.

 

[seventh bullet]

thats what the billions on sochis infrastructure was partly about

It was about already vastly rich parasites screwing ordinary Russians for as much money as possible via corruption and croneyism in providing cheap and shoddily-built infrastructure. Not to mention those who worked for low pay (if they got paid at all) in conditions that saw many of them die.

 

[frogwoman]

It was about already vastly rich parasites screwing ordinary Russians for as much money as possible via corruption and croneyism in providing cheap and shoddily-built infrastructure. Not to mention those who worked for low pay (if they got paid at all) in conditions that saw many of them die.

yep

 

[Idris2002]

during the riots there were near weekly reports of russian special forces heading for Kiev . All bollocks . From what I can see Russia definitely doesnt want sucked into this one and wants them all to calm down a bit and start talking . Which hopefully they will do eventually, although thats very much in the realm of hopeful right now .

While the coup administration hasnt yet officially banned their opponents the fash,,now the unofficial police.. have now methodically burned out over 500 of their offices and effectively driven them from public and political life in western ukraine . The ones that show up in the parliament have either been threatened into defecting..or get the crap kicked out of them for disagreeing right there in the parliament or the street outside.

The fash goon squads have their unofficial lists of traitors for arrest while Svoboda are now the cheif prosecutors compiling official lists. So dissent is being ruthlessly crushed, which pretty much means no talk .

But even if the IMF and EU USA bail the west out financially..then what . Their only means of generating income is in the east..half the population lives there ...and the people who buy their shit are Russia.
Are they going to be bailed out every month..they have to talk . But they are incapable of creating the conditions for talks.

But for now its pretty much a pogrom cum kristillnacht against the defenceless in western ukraine. Fascists they be hatin

now theyve gone and burned the Communist party leaders house down . Fash be having a pogrom .

Links, man, links!

 

[frogwoman]

http://disillusionedmarxist.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/nazis-in-ukraine/

I wrote this last night. It's not perfect by any means and I'm going to add a follow up note at the bottom because there's loads of stuff I didn't mention. Comments/criticisms etc welcome.

 

[Theisticle]

Apologies if this has already been posted:

Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine? By Max Blumenthal

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-a...is-ukraine?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

 

[butchersapron]

Links, man, links!

Don't you watch read and repeat rt?

 

[butchersapron]

It's easy, convenient. Timely.

It's fairly obvious that competing factions of capital are duking it out in the Ukraine. That it's less hassle to whip up a Neo-Nazi mob than go via old school liberal democracy is telling, and worrying.

I don't think that fascism is any more solely held as a response to working class challenges. It increasingly appears to be a lazy option in times where liberal democracy is increasingly played out as a mechanism for the maintenance of the dominant paradigm.

Times change. People change.

So where has the left wing analysis of fascism changed?

 

[Idris2002]

Don't you watch read and repeat rt?

It's easy to mock.

 

[frogwoman]

Idris2002 butchersapron What I should have written in that piece but didn't was a bit about the completely insipid liberal nature of the pro-European campaigning groups, who receive funding from the EU and whose (lack of) politics lend themselves to support for/by fascists - I actually have time for some of the members of the "Hyde Park" group mentioned above, but the politics of the groups overall don't generally tend to go beyond the idea that they should join the EU and people should be nicer to each other - and of course the implied idea behind all that that being closer to the EU and West will make people more prosperous and that the main "problem" is Russia. So in these sort of social movements you get liberal social democrats and leftists alongside "economic liberals" such as free-market types and actual fash.

In addition there's a huge amount of liberal nonsense in these countries about the EU and the benefits that joining it will bring - often propagated by groups funded by the EU. But a fascist is likely to have very different reasons for promoting ties with Romania (or wherever) and increased freedom of speech etc than someone who sees EU membership as being likely to lead to more social protection, an increased standard of living and a more "european-style" democracy.

 

[frogwoman]

Also, there tends to be the idea that using the national language more (and marginalisation of the Russian language) will mean that it gets closer to the West ... some of their campaigns include reasonable things like demonstrating about human rights and freedom of speech etc, but some of them include stuff like "the russification of the national curriculum" ... I doubt that many of them would protest in that way against Romanian nationalists.

Its the same in Ukraine and it's definitely the same in Baltic states like Estonia etc. Pro-EU sentiments are associated with nationalism.

 

[Blagsta]

Apologies if this has been covered here already, but wading through 48 pages is a daunting task!

The interim president, Turchynov. The party he represents,
Batkivshchyna, are a Conservative nationalist party, right? I read somewhere they were in a coalition agreement with the more overtly far right party Svodoba, is this correct?

 

[butchersapron]

Apologies if this has been covered here already, but wading through 48 pages is a daunting task!

The interim president, Turchynov. The party he represents,
Batkivshchyna, are a Conservative nationalist party, right? I read somewhere they were in a coalition agreement with the more overtly far right party Svodoba, is this correct?

I reckon about 80% of the thread is discussing the far-right in the Ukraine! Svodoba and the fatherland party had a deal in the last election to concentrate forces on seats each was best able to win in order to maximise returns - whether that would have turned into a formal govermental coalition we can only guess, but i suspect so.

 

[frogwoman]

So are they going to have a fash influence on the governing party, or are they going to end up acting like the lib-dems in power?

 

[Blagsta]

I reckon about 80% of the thread is discussing the far-right in the Ukraine! Svodoba and the fatherland party had a deal in the last election to concentrate forces on seats each was best able to win in order to maximise returns - whether that would have turned into a formal govermental coalition we can only guess, but i suspect so.

Cheers. Yes I know the thread is mostly about the far right, but I couldn't be arsed looking through 48 pages to find the specific info I wanted, lazy arse that I am.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also, there tends to be the idea that using the national language more (and marginalisation of the Russian language) will mean that it gets closer to the West ... some of their campaigns include reasonable things like demonstrating about human rights and freedom of speech etc, but some of them include stuff like "the russification of the national curriculum" ... I doubt that many of them would protest in that way against Romanian nationalists.

Its the same in Ukraine and it's definitely the same in Baltic states like Estonia etc. Pro-EU sentiments are associated with nationalism.

Yes, and the experiences of Russian-speakers there is not encouraging. In Latvia, Russian-speakers are around 40 per cent of the population yet the language is not recognised and Russian-speakers are marginalised. Unwanted in the land they were born in.

 

[frogwoman]

by the way, to some extent protests are definitely "monetised" there

 

[frogwoman]

Yes, and the experiences of Russian-speakers there is not encouraging. In Latvia, Russian-speakers are around 40 per cent of the population yet the language is not recognised and Russian-speakers are marginalised. Unwanted in the land they were born in.

Estonia as well.

 

[frogwoman]

Yes, and the experiences of Russian-speakers there is not encouraging. In Latvia, Russian-speakers are around 40 per cent of the population yet the language is not recognised and Russian-speakers are marginalised. Unwanted in the land they were born in.

Latvia also recently passed an amendment banning gay marriage.

 

[Drte4]

Urban75ers may be interested in this meeting:

Just back from Kiev, Gabriel Levy will be speaking about the 'revolution' in Ukraine
- this Saturday, March 1, 2.30pm at No.88, Fleet Street, London EC4Y 1DH

(entrance in St. Brides Avenue, nearest tube Blackfriars / Chancery Lane)

Please publicise widely

For articles by Gabriel Levy see http://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/

 

[frogwoman]

Urban75ers may be interested in this meeting:

Just back from Kiev, Gabriel Levy will be speaking about the 'revolution' in Ukraine
- this Saturday, March 1, 2.30pm at No.88, Fleet Street, London EC4Y 1DH

(entrance in St. Brides Avenue, nearest tube Blackfriars / Chancery Lane)

Please publicise widely

For articles by Gabriel Levy see http://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/

Is this meeting going to be held anywhere else? I'm away this weekend anyway ...

 

[Delroy Booth]

*tinfoil hat warning* I've been using this website to try and listen to some of the military radio communications that are going out. I often do this, because I'm a massive nerd, at times of big international upheavel you often get a spike in this types of broadcasts as classified orders and stuff are given out. For example when Kim Jong Il died there was a spike, as there also was when the "palace coup" around Bo Xilai happened. It's a good barometer of global stability - if there's shit about to go down you'll see it here first. Usually when I go there there's maybe 2 or 3 people online and a handful of broadcasts, maybe a dozen or so. At the moment there's over 150 people online listening and more broadcasts than I've ever seen before. I'm not any kind of expert on cryptography or spooks etc but I always have a check in at times like to this just to see the lay of the land.

The problem is that you've got to decode the classified ones. Unlike the more old fashioned numbers stations broadcasts these are signals sent with digital encryption (usually something like this) and then have to be decoded manually on top of that as the message will often be just a guy reading out numbers or letters (see here and here) but when you get a big spike in these broadcasts it's usually orders being given to military bases, so if there's shit going down you'll see an increase in these broadcasts

However you can listen to some pretty cool uncrypted stuff (type "11252.92" in the frequency box and have a listen.... )

 

[DaveCinzano]

by the way, to some extent protests are definitely "monetised" there

Thirty quid and a packed lunch?

 

[frogwoman]

Thirty quid and a packed lunch?

I mean some of them are organised by NGOs funded by the EU and the US state department

I know because I took part in a couple

 

[DaveCinzano]

I mean some of them are organised by NGOs funded by the EU and the US state department

I know because I took part in a couple

Don't avoid the question, did you get thirty quid and a packed lunch?

 

[frogwoman]

Don't avoid the question, did you get thirty quid and a packed lunch?

No

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't avoid the question, did you get thirty quid and a packed lunch?

nor did i