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Ukraine

Fez909 said:
Yeah, fair enough. But it seems to be right based on the evidence (images, flags, etc). And Channel 4 News agree.
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C4 news (actually a hysterical poster on here) are talking about a situation a long long time ago. I'm not being funny mate, but you're weeks behind here. The far-right component has been examined taken apart, everything on here on this thread. It doesn't mean though that post-fleeing it means that these same far-right people smoothly move into and take over the state. That they now have is the position of maximum propaganda for RT and its goons, the max media leverage.
 
I know it's old but nothing has changed since then that would indicate it's not the fash in charge of things.

But fair enough, I'll find some more up to date stuff.

And fair comment on Brian not being the official line on C4.
 
pocketscience said:
Fairly levelled analysis here from an American...
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interesting definition of 'levelled' - the only people who don't like the former government are either full on Nazi's or utterly corrupt and brain-dead liberals, everything the US and EU has done, thought or said has been the product of - and i quote - 'a kindergarten for mentally handicapped children', and the Russians are just great, and have the absolute right to determine where their borders are, even if that means their borders going around other peoples countries.

impressive work.
 
butchersapron said:
C4 news (actually a hysterical poster on here) are talking about a situation a long long time ago. I'm not being funny mate, but you're weeks behind here. The far-right component has been examined taken apart, everything on here on this thread. It doesn't mean though that post-fleeing it means that these same far-right people smoothly move into and take over the state. That they now have is the position of maximum propaganda for RT and its goons, the max media leverage.
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Exactly, there will be some who take state positions but I can't see Ukraine becoming a Nazi dictatorship, the real danger as you said is the strengthened position these people find themselves in below the state level (like that university someone linked to) and similar groups being strengthened on the pro Russian side (there's been reports of antisemitic etc propaganda there too, and beatings etc) however, I can't say I'm happy about the prospect of svoboda etc taking government positions and the massively strengthened position groups like right sector etc now find themselves in
 
kebabking said:
interesting definition of 'levelled' - the only people who don't like the former government are either full on Nazi's or utterly corrupt and brain-dead liberals, everything the US and EU has done, thought or said has been the product of - and i quote - 'a kindergarten for mentally handicapped children', and the Russians are just great, and have the absolute right to determine where their borders are, even if that means their borders going around other peoples countries.

impressive work.
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I find his take on US foreign policy far more levelled than the shit we're spoon-fed from the western propaganda machine and vastly more levelled than your interpretation of his piece.
 
vanya said:
This article in the Feb 24 edition of Asia Times provides a healthy dose of realism. It could be that the pain in Ukraine is, unfortunately, just beginning.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-240214.html
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I would take Spengler with a pinch of salt conservative neocon who describes his writing as writing from a Judeo-Christian perspective. And that's without going into Asia Times, like a lot of the Asian press swayed to US foreign policy. Despite being loved by every conservative due to Pepe Escobar's regular appearances on Alex Jones and RT, they often publish news stories from Radio Free Asia and there articles are always favour US foreign policy. Read some of the articles on Cambodia, or Burma their a joke even if you just a little about the country.
 
elbows said:
Regarding gas, Russia has started construction of the 'south stream' pipeline which bypasses Ukraine. I don't think it will be ready for a couple of years but it alters the equation.

http://rt.com/business/serbia-gazprom-pipeline-launch-238/
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That's interesting - Russia keeping a couple of moves ahead of the (great) game, circumventing Ukraine, and pushing influence West into Serbia as the EU push East. I didn't know that Gazprom owned Serbia's primary oil company. Echoes of old-fashioned Pan-Slavism in the the comments under the RT piece mentioning 'Orthodox brothers'.
 
Found a really interesting article by a dissident, according to all accounts Michael Drackman Ukraine's regional manager of the International Republican Institute signed a $3 million deal with the department of foreign affairs to fund Ukrainian political parties. http://jureg.com/inostrannoe-vmeshatelstvo-prodolzhaetsya-teper-otlichilas-kanada

With John Mccain the director of IRI visiting Ukraine in December, it would seem they a lot of interest in changing political power. Well at least more so than Cambodia last year.
 
If, as the dominant left-wing reading holds, fascism is the response by capital arm-in-arm with major elements of the state to serious working class challenges that cannot play out within existing state structures, then what is this?
 
albionism said:
I heard from an Antifa facebook page that there was a massive anti-fash
rally in Kiev today. Anyone know if it's true? There was a picture of a large,
indistinct crowd, but no text at all..Info anyone?
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that sounds like complete bollocks tbf

i saw a mobile phone clip on RT of a single, and exceedingly brave, anti fascist who infiltrated the stage of the fascists and took the microphone . He started asking them what it is they actually wanted..why do they want to join the EU ..that sort of stuff . He lasted about 4 seconds. His face was sprayed with green dye and he was summarily bundled off the stage. No idea what happened him .
 
Patteran said:
That's interesting - Russia keeping a couple of moves ahead of the (great) game, circumventing Ukraine, and pushing influence West into Serbia as the EU push East. I didn't know that Gazprom owned Serbia's primary oil company. Echoes of old-fashioned Pan-Slavism in the the comments under the RT piece mentioning 'Orthodox brothers'.
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Russia's general policy on gas transportation has been to diversify away from Ukraine - they also have Nord Stream in the Baltic and I believe they control a lot of the Belorussian system (though it carries less). It's been years since I looked into this so I could have forgotten things. The EU has its Southern Gas Corridor, which would originally have been Nabucco, so are playing the same game, but they unfortunately forgot the business case so I think the current plan is for Turkey and Azerbaijan to build a pipeline up to the Greek border and then the EU one will cross over to Italy. This won't solve SE European dependence on Russian gas but Italy is a much bigger market.

From Russia's point of view they like to lock European countries into long term supply contracts and so it's damaging for them when their security of demand is affected by whatever's going on in Ukraine. Given how much of their economy is reliant on hydrocarbons income, which in turn is heavily reliant on networks passing through another country, you can see why they want control.

The general response has been diversification and strengthening of the gas networks, on all sides, which is probably good all round. I think Ukraine is planning reverse flow upgrades to allow it to import from the EU but don't know what happened to that.

Of course, Russia is also a bit fucked as a lot of their mature fields are in decline, the new ones are very far away, their national infrastructure is balls and everyone's looking to make/import shale gas.
 
Casually Red said:
thats most likely sevastopol, you can see the dock cranes in the background . Absolutely no doubt theres massive rallies there with a strong anti fascist.. but not exactly left wing theme. Unless your a fan of Soviet martial airs and the like.
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You may want to read a little further ahead :D
 
butchersapron said:
If, as the dominant left-wing reading holds, fascism is the response by capital arm-in-arm with major elements of the state to serious working class challenges that cannot play out within existing state structures, then what is this?
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It's easy, convenient. Timely.

It's fairly obvious that competing factions of capital are duking it out in the Ukraine. That it's less hassle to whip up a Neo-Nazi mob than go via old school liberal democracy is telling, and worrying.

I don't think that fascism is any more solely held as a response to working class challenges. It increasingly appears to be a lazy option in times where liberal democracy is increasingly played out as a mechanism for the maintenance of the dominant paradigm.

Times change. People change.
 
anyways..last night i caught a few snippets of whats likely to happen with the right sector . The fash seem to be very confident that the guys with the masks are going to become the nucleus for the states reformed security apparatus..special police and intelligence . That view would tie in with Svobodas appointment to the prosecutors office. The fash dont want the burden of government, they want control of the streets and the people.
Saw footage of them manning checkpoints on the way to airports and the like, scanning travellers for those on their wanted lists . Theyre definitely assuming the air of officialdom.
 
Pickman's model said:
i'd have thought that russia had great earning potential, which would be made concrete if only the investment was put into developing it. it's not like a country with a population in the region of 145 million is going to be entirely devoid of talent and unable to diversify its exports.
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thats what the billions on sochis infrastructure was partly about
 
kebabking said:
it is, but you've got to ask how much choice he has - he's in charge of a country with almost no earning potential except natural resouces and arms sales, he's got countless nationalities and regions just itching to be long gone, his military capability (with a couple of exceptions) is on the bones of its arse, and he's got massive social/political problems that would bring down any 'normal' government - the only thing that keeps him afloat is that everyone thinks he's a stone hard winner, and that there's little point fighting him (politically, economically, diplomatically or militarily).

he needs a regular 'win' to stay a winner - and public defeats are very bad news for someone who's politics are 'i'm a winner..'. upping the ante is a definate risk for Putin, no doubt about it - but so is doing nothing.
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the thing is though the Russians have been very careful from the outset not to be seen backing Yanukovic. Theyve reiterated constantly their aid offer stands no matter whos in power, providing they have legitimacy and stability . The pro kremlin media has regularly made quite contemptuous noises about the flight prez , while Russian statements have made regular allusions to a chronic lack of leadership, and references to Ukraine being a doormat for foreign interests .
Theyve condemned the violence , called the coup a coup and condemned the western meddling while at the same time making their displeasure with yanukovic evident . And their consistent line has been both sides should sit down and talk and work out a future, no matter how long that takes , while Russia has stayed out of the argument. Which when all the emotion dies down is something the Ukranians will have to do if they dont want civil war .
The bulk of the Ukranian economy and over half the population lies in anti kiev districts . Theve voted to withold revenues from the coup government . The coupsters dont have the muscle to do much about it frankly .Theyll need a lot more than a few thousand fash with AKs to take those districts . And as they are skint, and going to get even more skint without a massive bail out, times definitely on Putins side and not theirs . So he can sit tight .

And as regards upping the ante theyve been very careful not to be seen doing that . The yanks and EU have been making all these grave warnings to Russia about not intervenng and the response has just been a diplomatic smirk . Pointing out since the fall of the soviet union Iraq..twice..Afghanistan, Libya and a failed attempt to go to war in Syria . All disasters . He also doesnt need to send the troops and tanks in, theyre already there. 25,000 of them . And very much appreciated by the locals as opposed to resented .
 
Casually Red said:
He also doesnt need to send the troops and tanks in, theyre already there. 25,000 of them . And very much appreciated by the locals as opposed to resented .
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Ukraine's Crimeans eye alliance with Russia
Russian flag raised at city hall in Sevastopol, home of Russia's Black Sea fleet, where Viktor Yanukovych may have taken refuge
The Guardian, Monday 24 February 2014
These febrile scenes raise the spectre that Crimea might declare autonomy from Kiev and seek to join the Russian Federation, possibly after a Kremlin-encouraged referendum. This scenario is, as yet, unlikely. But with Moscow's intentions unclear and a power vacuum in Kiev, Sevastopol is key to Ukraine's future as a unitary sovereign state.
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More than half of Crimea's 2 million inhabitants are ethnically Russian. The Russian fleet in Sevastopol employs more than 25,000 and enjoys overwhelming local support. Unlike in much of the rest of Ukraine, where statues of Lenin have been felled in a revolutionary frenzy, Sevastopol's giant Lenin still gazes serenely over the Black Sea, next to white-painted Russian classical naval buildings. The town's hilly streets are adorned with Soviet memorials.
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Lots of dodgy unsubstantiated reports of Russian marines or special forces going to Sebastopol.
 
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