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Ukraine

Read back what you posted last night. It's a common thing with you (the exchange a couple of weeks ago for example). All over the place and I can't be arsed with it.

I shouldn't have made that post #8148.

Victory is yours. I'm off to bed.
 
What is happening in Russia is very similar to what is happening across Europe, with constant attempts to address 'legitimate' concerns of far-right groups by right-wing social conservatives. A whole host of bullshit theory comes from it. Here we have 'Britishness classes' and constant harking back to the golden age of the 19th century empire. I don't understand why you think Russia is some sort of massive exception here.
 
Fidel Castro and his army seen by Poroshenko surrounding Mariupol.
Red Indians marching on Kiev says Kerry.
Russian troops moving suspiciously around Russia warns NATO.
:p
 
My highlighting and in this case your words, none of the above has been said by me.

As for proof that Russia has invaded or at least is providing the rebel side with large amounts of hardware (which then leads to the question of where did the rebels find enough operators) how about the presence in the east of Ukraine of variants of T72 and BTR82 that are only used by Russian forces?

arent many Russian military tanks actually produced in Ukraine along wth lots of other hardware? Loads of countries use the T72 . Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan both use the BTR 82 . One tank..or rather a particular armour pattern on a widely used tank does not an invasion make. Armour patterns can be copied like anything else. And the DPR people have the heavy industry materials and technicians to do it .
 
What is happening in Russia is very similar to what is happening across Europe, with constant attempts to address 'legitimate' concerns of far-right groups by right-wing social conservatives. A whole host of bullshit theory comes from it. Here we have 'Britishness classes' and constant harking back to the golden age of the 19th century empire. I don't understand why you think Russia is some sort of massive exception here.

I don't.

See? Where did you get that from? It's not just on this subject that you find reason to argue about things people do not think and have not said.

I see that Eurasianism interests you. Maybe start by saying what you understand it to be, in its diversity, both historically and today.
 
I don't.

See? Where did you get that from? It's not just on this subject that you find reason to argue about things people do not think and have not said.

I see that Eurasianism interests you. Maybe start by saying what you understand it to be, in its diversity, both historically and today.

Where did I get that from? You posted a picture of a far-right activist in a graveyard to hammer home some point you didn't make explicit. How many times have you done this when discussing intellectual theory for the Conservative/Labour Party? You find the idea that Dugin is similar to mainstream western political ideologues offensive or stupid. I thought that is why we reached these pointless tangents, where I am asked to provide you a descriptions of Eurasianism, Stalinism, and Anthony Giddens.

While explicit Eurasianism the likes of Dugin is promoting is an interesting, albeit small, social movement for sure, I am not sure how particularly diverse or relevant it is to Russia, Russians, or even the Eurasian Union. It seems more relevant to western perceptions of Russia, Vladimir Putin and Russia's relations with its neighbours.
 
arent many Russian military tanks actually produced in Ukraine along wth lots of other hardware? Loads of countries use the T72 . Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan both use the BTR 82 . One tank..or rather a particular armour pattern on a widely used tank does not an invasion make. Armour patterns can be copied like anything else. And the DPR people have the heavy industry materials and technicians to do it .
Ukraine mainly use T64s, the types of T72s especially, seen in Eastern Ukraine are only used by Russia, simple as that.
 
The actual Eurasianist movement (as opposed to Russian nationalism) is of little significance in Russian politics and Russian decision-making. It is of far more significance to the West.

I would agree, in part (you mean Dugin's movement specifically?).

But I was referring to the previous nonsense, so let's recap:

Western understandings of Russian thought (which borrows from western European thought) in books you haven't read aren't much use.

I'm a racist who thinks that through their traditions Russian people prefer authoritarian rule and are to be expected to have nostalgic feelings for Stalinism (which is 'western' in important ways).

It's not good form to post a photo of Alain Soral insulting victims and survivors of the Holocaust, yet he wrote the foreword to Dugin's book you linked to and haven't read.

Dugin isn't fascist or can't be placed on the far right and is actually like Tony Blair (via Giddens).

Eurasianism both classical and contemporary (see the third line) is irrelevant (we were talking about Eurasianism in the first place).

You're trolling, right?
 
Russians produce various marks of tanks so a specific mark turning up where its not suppoused to be is a dead giveaway.
As the germans found out when a load of ex ddr tanks turned up in the hands of the croats that mark was only ever issued to the ddr.
 
In all probability, the eastern government is similar in class hierarchy to the western government and the social composition of the supporters are very similar too.
I'm neither educated nor informed, and don't have a scooby about most of the erudite stuff in the last few pages. But this strikes me as interesting and pertinent and concrete enough that I might get my head around some discussion of how accurate people think it is, particularly the bit I've highlighted.
 
We got this from a Ukranian comrade via the blog:

Please, help to do something with fascism in Ukraine! The worst thing is it has come to power and is supported by many Ukrainians, who deny the very fact of fascism existing among them. But whatch the videos from blocked and bombed cities, listen to the civilians, cursing the fascist regime, and say, is it is not fascism, what fascism is then!



!
(all with English subs)

Comments of Ukrainians under the last video (in orginal) were even more shocking :
“I don’t care! There aren’t any people in Luhansk, only “carpet bombardment” will safe this scums from themselves. 450 thousands amoebas are worh being killed! Our guys, killing them just have to keep in their minds – those aren’t humans! ”

“I feel better. Soon we’ll shoot all the filthy colorads who are sucking blood from Ukraine, and it will be all right – Ukraine will thrive without these damned things!”
That’s war. But probably things will change to better after they win, and peace will come to Donetsk and Luhansk regions, remaining a part of Ukraine? It’s easy to predict, seing the examples of cities taken under control of Ukrainian army and paramilitary battalions, such as Mariupol and now Slaviansk. A real witch hunting.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVxKs32DYss
(all with English subs)

All original videos were uploaded by Ukrainian Nazis, who were proud of their heroic deeds. In the first video the inquirer, Oleg Lyashko, is the leader of Ukrainian Radical party, a very public person, a candidate for president who took the third place at the recent elections! In the second video the man in balaclava was recognized as the leader of a patriotic organization in Odessa, Pavel Kirilenko. The “heros” of the third video are battalion “Dnepr-1″ who occupied Mariupol in June. All of them act under the moto “Ukraine is above all”, “Glory to the nation”. And all of them in all media that there’s no fascism in Ukraine, it’s nothing but pro-russian propaganda.
So, please, is you are real antifa, not that kind of venal “human rights defenders” who become as blind, deaf and dumb as the three buddist monkeys when it comes to talk about Ukraine, please, at least help to share the information.
 
There's a little problem with Russian fascists as well.

Looks like this guy, Anton Raevsky, made it back to Ukraine (well, the Donetsk People's Republic) after his brief visit to Odessa in March to see his racist Slavic Unity/Odessakya Druzhina mates.

OIV31G9.jpg


BsLYDzECcAAWPz9.jpg


DNR ID/registration card.

10404084_604631689653760_1012787268857688873_n.jpg
 
Yeah I'm really surprised that nearly all of the criticism seems to be directed at Russia on this thread. Not that they don't deserve criticism, but people are pointing to far-right influences amongst the rebels, but were making excuses or downplaying its importance in the Maidan lot. Or just not mentioning it at all. For example the Azov Battalion who are open white supremacists and use the wolfsangel as their flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Can't find much news other than Russia Today which people seem to roll their eyes at, so I'm going to take stuff from wiki:

Arsen Avakov, the new Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine after the overthrow of the Yanukovich government, issued on April 13, 2014 a decree authorizing creating the new paramilitary force from civilians up to 12,000.[14] Anton Heraschenko (Антон Геращенко), MVS, Avakov's deputy, was tasked with overseeing the process of establishing of the new security force.[15]
...
n 11 August, Azov battalion, backed by paratroopers, captured Marinka from pro-Russian rebels and entered the suburbs of Donetsk clashing with DPR fighters.[18]
...
In early September 2014, the Azov battalion was engaged in the defence of Mariupol.
...
The political party led by the battalion's leader Biletsky calls for the expansion of Ukraine, the "struggle for the liberation of the entire White Race," and seeks to "punish severely sexual perversions and any interracial contacts."
...
The Azov men use the symbol that resembles Wolfsangel (Wolf’s Hook) symbol on their banner and members of the battalion are open white supremacists, or anti-Semites.[13] The battalion commander Biletsky wrote that the historic mission of Ukrainian nation "is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival against the Semite-led Untermenschen.” A former member of the battalion also claims that only men with National Socialist views may join.[23]
...
Ukrainian political scientist Anton Shekhotsov told the Swedes that at this time four Swedish neo-Nazis were fighting with Azov, while the Swedish national police confirmed "several".[24]
...
The Russian and Ukrainian security expert at New York University, Mark Galeotti, has described groups like the Azov Battalion as magnets attracting violent, fringe elements from around and outside Ukraine, warning that they will continue to play an outsized role in Ukrainian affairs after the war."
 
Actually, we seem to have established that there are far-right elements on either side of the conflict. Maybe we can move on from the tiresome "which side is more fascist" exchange and look at why that is. It isn't too surprising that in a conflict essentially based around nationalism and ethnic identity there are far-right nationalists who constitute a significant (but not defining) component of either side.
 
There's a little problem with Russian fascists as well.

Looks like this guy, Anton Raevsky, made it back to Ukraine (well, the Donetsk People's Republic) after his brief visit to Odessa in March to see his racist Slavic Unity/Odessakya Druzhina mates.

OIV31G9.jpg


BsLYDzECcAAWPz9.jpg


DNR ID/registration card.

10404084_604631689653760_1012787268857688873_n.jpg
We've been through this upthread. A sense of proportion needs to be applied imo. For a start Raevsky and his cronies haven't been engaging in any unprovoked shelling of residential areas in Kiev or Lviv for the last 4 months. Secondly, there's no evidence that they're being endorsed by the Russian state, as are Parubiy, Lyashko, Yarosh etc in Kiev by our Eu/US politicians & MSM with their blanket silence on the topic.
The justification of associating Russia with these clowns is like blaming the UK for the IS or AQ uprisings because a hand full of British jihadists have poped up in social media
 
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Yeah I'm really surprised that nearly all of the criticism seems to be directed at Russia on this thread. Not that they don't deserve criticism, but people are pointing to far-right influences amongst the rebels, but were making excuses or downplaying its importance in the Maidan lot. Or just not mentioning it at all.

I suggest that you go back and read the start of this thread and then see if you still think that the above description of what happened is at all accurate.
 
Yeah I'm really surprised that nearly all of the criticism seems to be directed at Russia on this thread. Not that they don't deserve criticism, but people are pointing to far-right influences amongst the rebels, but were making excuses or downplaying its importance in the Maidan lot. Or just not mentioning it at all. For example the Azov Battalion who are open white supremacists and use the wolfsangel as their flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Can't find much news other than Russia Today which people seem to roll their eyes at, so I'm going to take stuff from wiki:

Looks like they got their arses handed back to them at Ilovaysk.



From the other side.

 
We've been through this upthread. A sense of proportion needs to be applied imo. For a start Raevsky and his cronies haven't been engaging in any unprovoked shelling of residential areas in Kiev or Lviv for the last 4 months. Secondly, there's no evidence that they're being endorsed by the Russian state, as are Parubiy, Lyashko, Yarosh etc in Kiev by our Eu/US politicians & MSM with their blanket silence on the topic.

The justification of associating Russia with these clowns is like blaming the UK for the IS or AQ uprisings because a hand full of British jihadists have poped up in social media

Sure.

Gubarev, Girkin/Strelkov (now out of it for the time being), Borodai, Prokhanov, Dugin... Should anti-fascists be with this lot?
 
Not that they don't deserve criticism, but people are pointing to far-right influences amongst the rebels, but were making excuses or downplaying its importance in the Maidan lot. Or just not mentioning it at all.

Can you name the posters and show where on this thread it has happened, please?
 
Can you name the posters and show where on this thread it has happened, please?

Jesus, the thread is 273 pages long! And my internet is a bit funny lately, so no. I've been lurking on this thread since the beginning and it's just the general impression I've got. I have a vague recollection of some people claiming that the far-right isn't seen the same way in Ukraine, and that glorifying Bandera is about his resistance to the Nazis as well as the Soviets and nothing to do with far-right politics despite appearances. Or pointing out that Right Sector/Svoboda et al are a relatively small part of the whole Maidan thing, which doesn't seem to be a nuance given to far-right presence amongst the rebels. Could be my memory playing tricks on me, but it does seem to me that people have taken definite sides in this conflict, while Casually Red et al will only criticise Kiev and gloss over anything casting the rebels in a bad light, everyone he is arguing with seems to be just as partisan. I haven't seen anyone who has been arguing with CR criticise Kiev in a long, long time.
 
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