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Ukraine

Not pretend? Fuck off.

"What is Eurasianism?"

"I define Eurasianism this way"

"Fuck off."

Classy. Nice work mate. Real intellect there. Have fun shouting about definition. Go grab a career in the social sciences. What a cunt.
 
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Casually Red said:
somehow this doesnt look like an attempt to reduce any tensions. NATO will be engaging in war games exercises in Ukraine in the next few weeks. Well done .Perfect time for the junta to launch its next offensive. Which is a pretty obvious move once theyve got their defeated army reorganized and resupplied. The only reason they went for a ceasefire at all was because they were on the verge of total collapse. But this is sure to stiffen their resolve.
Click to expand...

That suspicion seems understandable. But given that this possibility is such an obvious one, you'd then have to ask why the other side went for the ceasefire too, surely?
 
elbows said:
That suspicion seems understandable. But given that this possibility is such an obvious one, you'd then have to ask why the other side went for the ceasefire too, surely?
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well...the DPRs immediate aim has long been talks with the junta..who have refused to countenance it up to now ..dismissing them as subhumans and terrorists whose only role is to be cleansed from the earth. Any resulting talks puts major egg on the juntas face and grants them recognition and with that recognition a measure of legitimacy . Thats an advance strategically. it could even result in a maidan 2 such will be the outrage in certain quarters

Secondly their very successful offensive notwithstanding they remain a smaller force with finite resources and they cant keep it up forever. Predicted a few pages back its likely theyd advance only so far and then consolidate before moving again...if ever. And its probably likely some pressure has been applied from Russia too .

Personally i suspect both sides are merely taking a time out and round 2 will get underway before too long. That appears to be the mood on the ground from interviews with troops on both sides. And the NATO move into Ukraine along with the claims of weapon deliveries and advisors makes that all the more likely i reckon. The junta are likely to launch yet another offensive. if they dont they could well be politically finished and be moved on by their own hardliners..not that they arent hardliners themselves...and its also very likely that is what NATO is demanding they do as well .
 
Rimbaud said:
Actually, we seem to have established that there are far-right elements on either side of the conflict. Maybe we can move on from the tiresome "which side is more fascist" exchange and look at why that is. It isn't too surprising that in a conflict essentially based around nationalism and ethnic identity there are far-right nationalists who constitute a significant (but not defining) component of either side.
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what really gives me the shits about this entire debate is a bunch of self appointed judges on here who feel they have the right to determine what is an anti fascist struggle and what isnt. Their definition is based on the usual western and particularly British arrogance..their own superior outlook and norms which everyone else has to conform to . For them the social phenomenon which is an anti fascist struggle has amounted solely to the British experience ..a country that no nazi army ever set foot in..largely thanks to the Russians and Americans .. and whose inhabitants were largely kosher under the racial theory .

Their experience of an anti fascist struggle was little more than clandestine set tos in pub carparks between opposing elements of very small fringe groups that most people never heard of in a struggle most British people never heard of . That and leafleting and small meetings. Thats not in any manner to demean it and its necessity against a virulent social and political evil ..or the British success at countering what it entailed.. but thats pretty much what occured when alls said and done. Hardly anyone died ..it was a non lethal affair.

in that part of the world however its a very different social phenomenon. Tens of millions of people were slaughtered . Theres a burning pride in those people that they were the ones to physically destroy nazi might at an incalculable human and social cost ..leaving the westerners to mop up the dregs of the reserves . it defines their outlook and sense of self in many ways and has indelibly marked them as a people..who were afterall categorized and treated as subhumans.

Personally id love to be a witness to an exchange between one of the fonts of wisdom on here..say if one of our resident sages advises a Donbass miner or brickie whos in a ditch defending his burned out deserted village ..probably with his grandfathers medals in his pocket and a hammer and sickle on top of his bunker as many of them do ..that despite being shelled and shot and bombed and strafed by a bunch of fascist bastards intent on driving him and his from the land..as they have done to over a million..on behalf of a junta thats openly described his people as subhuman and lauded Bandera openly as a national hero ...hes not really engaged in an anti fascist struggle and is really just as fascist as the force arrayed against him ..the moral and political equivalent . Because theres somehow an equivalence between a few dickheads and opportunists turning up to help him and the entire raison detre of the artillery and terror campaign being waged against him and his and the motivation behind it .

And not least because the Urban sages now better..theyre better read...and are infinitely better placed to defne what is and what isnt an anti fascist struggle than say..someone whos town has just been obliterated by fascist shellfire . And is besieged by fascist gangs . And who only thins his struggle is anti fascist one. No matter..such a charlatan wont pull the wool over anyones eyes here while the thread police are on the beat .

See as well..dont forget this now..remember those unarmed non rioting Donbass people we saw on youtube being shot down in the street point blank for shouting fascists at fascist paramilitarys...that wasnt anti fascism at all either . Nether was all those civilians shouting fascists at APCs bursting through their sreets and opening fire..or blocking fascist artillery that later devastated their homes in punitive reprisals . Those people massacred in Odessa for having an anti fascist stall..nope..wasnt anti fascism at all . No difference between the 2 sides apparently . The sages have thus pronounced and their analysis is not just superior to the deluded victims of fascist aggression..its unassailable in its virtue and experience .

The people there know the Banderist agenda very well..what it means for their present and future . Thats why theyre fighting against it because they know what it is today and what it always has been and how they are categorized demonsed and scapegoated under it .But no..one of our resident sages would soon put them straight and lift the blinkers from their fascist equivalent eyes and instill some badly needed self awareness.

That would be an exchange and lecture itd be worth getting the popcorn out for . And no mistake guvnor .
 
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Casually Red said:
what really gives me the shits about this entire debate is a bunch of self appointed judges on here who feel they have the right to determine what is an anti fascist struggle and what isnt. Their definition is based on the usual western and particularly British arrogance..their own superior outlook and norms which everyone else has to conform to . For them the social phenomenon which is an anti fascist struggle has amounted solely to the British experience ..a country that no nazi army ever set foot in..largely thanks to the Russians and Americans .. and whose inhabitants were largely kosher under the racial theory .

Their experience of an anti fascist struggle was little more than clandestine set tos in pub carparks between opposing elements of very small fringe groups that most people never heard of in a struggle most British people never heard of . That and leafleting and small meetings. Thats not in any manner to demean it and its necessity against a virulent social and political evil ..or the British success at countering what it entailed.. but thats pretty much what occured when alls said and done. Hardly anyone died ..it was a non lethal affair.

in that part of the world however its a very different social phenomenon. Tens of millions of people were slaughtered . Theres a burning pride in those people that they were the ones to physically destroy nazi might at an incalculable human and social cost ..leaving the westerners to mop up the dregs of the reserves . it defines their outlook and sense of self in many ways and has indelibly marked them as a people..who were afterall categorized and treated as subhumans.

Personally id love to be a witness to an exchange between one of the fonts of wisdom on here..say if one of our resident sages advises a Donbass miner or brickie whos in a ditch defending his burned out deserted village ..probably with his grandfathers medals in his pocket and a hammer and sickle on top of his bunker as many of them do ..that despite being shelled and shot and bombed and strafed by a bunch of fascist bastards intent on driving him and his from the land..as they have done to over a million..on behalf of a junta thats openly described his people as subhuman and lauded Bandera openly as a national hero ...hes not really engaged in an anti fascist struggle and is really just as fascist as the force arrayed against him ..the moral and political equivalent . Because theres somehow an equivalence between a few dickheads and opportunists turning up to help him and the entire raison detre of the artillery and terror campaign being waged against him and his and the motivation behind it .

And not least because the Urban sages now better..theyre better read...and are infinitely better placed to defne what is and what isnt an anti fascist struggle than say..someone whos town has just been obliterated by fascist shellfire . And is besieged by fascist gangs . And who only thins his struggle is anti fascist one. No matter..such a charlatan wont pull the wool over anyones eyes here while the thread police are on the beat .

See as well..dont forget this now..remember those unarmed non rioting Donbass people we saw on youtube being shot down in the street point blank for shouting fascists at fascist paramilitarys...that wasnt anti fascism at all either . Nether was all those civilians shouting fascists at APCs bursting through their sreets and opening fire..or blocking fascist artillery that later devastated their homes in punitive reprisals . Those people massacred in Odessa for having an anti fascist stall..nope..wasnt anti fascism at all . No difference between the 2 sides apparently . The sages have thus pronounced and their analysis is not just superior to the deluded victims of fascist aggression..its unassailable in its virtue and experience .

The people there know the Banderist agenda very well..what it means for their present and future . Thats why theyre fighting against it because they know what it is today and what it always has been and how they are categorized demonsed and scapegoated under it .But no..one of our resident sages would soon put them straight and lift the blinkers from their fascist equivalent eyes and instill some badly needed self awareness.

That would be an exchange and lecture itd be worth getting the popcorn out for . And no mistake guvnor .
Click to expand...

I'm not going to get into a debate because I'm still not sure what I think and I don't think I have accurate enough information on what's going on, so I prefer to just lurk and read. I am sympathetic to the people in Donetsk and Luhansk who are facing a full scale military assault, however, it does seem like people have posted a fair bit of evidence to suggest that there are some far-right Russian elements involved too. You don't seem to have really refuted them satisfactorily. It seems to me that both sides of the conflict are heterogeneous in their ideological make-up, so I'm not sure how helpful it is to cast it as a pure anti-fascist struggle, given that most of the government in Kiev are not fascists and certainly some of the rebels are fascists.
 
For what its worth CR seems to know whats going on in the round. Not sure about the ignoring people he doesn't agree with. In fact thats fucking stupid. But apart from that respect to the guy, particularly cos he crosses the Urban mafiosos who defend their territory but never say anything. Whereas CR does at least.
 
Casually Red said:
what really gives me the shits about this entire debate is a bunch of self appointed judges on here who feel they have the right to determine what is an anti fascist struggle and what isnt. Their definition is based on the usual western and particularly British arrogance..their own superior outlook and norms which everyone else has to conform to . For them the social phenomenon which is an anti fascist struggle has amounted solely to the British experience ..a country that no nazi army ever set foot in..largely thanks to the Russians and Americans .. and whose inhabitants were largely kosher under the racial theory .

Their experience of an anti fascist struggle was little more than clandestine set tos in pub carparks between opposing elements of very small fringe groups that most people never heard of in a struggle most British people never heard of . That and leafleting and small meetings. Thats not in any manner to demean it and its necessity against a virulent social and political evil ..or the British success at countering what it entailed.. but thats pretty much what occured when alls said and done. Hardly anyone died ..it was a non lethal affair.

in that part of the world however its a very different social phenomenon. Tens of millions of people were slaughtered . Theres a burning pride in those people that they were the ones to physically destroy nazi might at an incalculable human and social cost ..leaving the westerners to mop up the dregs of the reserves . it defines their outlook and sense of self in many ways and has indelibly marked them as a people..who were afterall categorized and treated as subhumans.

Personally id love to be a witness to an exchange between one of the fonts of wisdom on here..say if one of our resident sages advises a Donbass miner or brickie whos in a ditch defending his burned out deserted village ..probably with his grandfathers medals in his pocket and a hammer and sickle on top of his bunker as many of them do ..that despite being shelled and shot and bombed and strafed by a bunch of fascist bastards intent on driving him and his from the land..as they have done to over a million..on behalf of a junta thats openly described his people as subhuman and lauded Bandera openly as a national hero ...hes not really engaged in an anti fascist struggle and is really just as fascist as the force arrayed against him ..the moral and political equivalent . Because theres somehow an equivalence between a few dickheads and opportunists turning up to help him and the entire raison detre of the artillery and terror campaign being waged against him and his and the motivation behind it .

And not least because the Urban sages now better..theyre better read...and are infinitely better placed to defne what is and what isnt an anti fascist struggle than say..someone whos town has just been obliterated by fascist shellfire . And is besieged by fascist gangs . And who only thins his struggle is anti fascist one. No matter..such a charlatan wont pull the wool over anyones eyes here while the thread police are on the beat .

See as well..dont forget this now..remember those unarmed non rioting Donbass people we saw on youtube being shot down in the street point blank for shouting fascists at fascist paramilitarys...that wasnt anti fascism at all either . Nether was all those civilians shouting fascists at APCs bursting through their sreets and opening fire..or blocking fascist artillery that later devastated their homes in punitive reprisals . Those people massacred in Odessa for having an anti fascist stall..nope..wasnt anti fascism at all . No difference between the 2 sides apparently . The sages have thus pronounced and their analysis is not just superior to the deluded victims of fascist aggression..its unassailable in its virtue and experience .

The people there know the Banderist agenda very well..what it means for their present and future . Thats why theyre fighting against it because they know what it is today and what it always has been and how they are categorized demonsed and scapegoated under it .But no..one of our resident sages would soon put them straight and lift the blinkers from their fascist equivalent eyes and instill some badly needed self awareness.

That would be an exchange and lecture itd be worth getting the popcorn out for . And no mistake guvnor .
Click to expand...

There are openly fascist elements on both sides. Agree?

Russia has one of the largest neo-nazi movements in the world. Agree?

A simple yes or no would suffice.
 
Casually Red said:
bollocks..I even stopped linking to RT myself at one point because of the dogs abuse and derailing it resulted In. Im assuming youve now become willfully blind to the other poster who stated he wouldnt link to RT because of the reaction hed get. And willfully blind to those whove linked to western news sources and stating that as fact..because you dont upbraid them over it . id suggest you either show some consistency on the subject or respectfully ask you drop the subject .

theyre grudge nursing whinging oul bitter bastards who complain that i havent been banned long ago and even do snidey pm campaigns to try and get me banned. They complain because theyre a bunch of wankers who like hounding posters off their site and just havent succeeded with me yet. Their complaint is that im posting at all..not the subject matter. Thats just a smokescreen.
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Never mind what other people do. Just say it, acknowledge it and you won't get so much shit. RT as a news source tends towards pro-Russian bias against the pro-Western media in the West. Agree?

A yes/no answer will suffice.
 
Not seen this posted here yet, longish thing from the LRB with a bloke meeting various figures in Donetsk, including a footballer who's ended up minister of sport in the rebel administration: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/keith-gessen/why-not-kill-them-all
He gives what seems a reasonable impression of the various different social forces at play on either side, particularly the working class resistance in Donetsk combined with a few local and carpet-bagging rightist/fascists. Sample para that struck me as a reasonable take:
For Mishin and Bik, the signal events of the past year looked very different from the way they looked to my friends in Kiev or Moscow. When liberals in those places had seen young men on Maidan attacking the riot police, they thought, ‘people power’; and when they saw men in Donetsk beating pro-Ukraine protesters, they thought, ‘fascists’. But that wasn’t how it looked from Donetsk. From Donetsk they saw fascists on Maidan and, on the streets of Donetsk, people power. Whether the actual fascists on Maidan made them more or less certain of this, I don’t know, but hearing it gave body to something the sociologist Volodymyr Ishchenko had said to me in Kiev: ‘It was the liberals’ tolerance of the nationalists on Maidan that led to this. If they had rejected them right away, things might have turned out differently. It might have led to the collapse of Maidan. It might even have meant that Yanukovych remained president. But at least there would have been peace.’
Click to expand...
 
JimW said:
Not seen this posted here yet, longish thing from the LRB with a bloke meeting various figures in Donetsk, including a footballer who's ended up minister of sport in the rebel administration: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/keith-gessen/why-not-kill-them-all
He gives what seems a reasonable impression of the various different social forces at play on either side, particularly the working class resistance in Donetsk combined with a few local and carpet-bagging rightist/fascists. Sample para that struck me as a reasonable take:
Click to expand...
I don't know who he is, but that seems like good observational journalism, as does his piece from Odessa a couple of weeks prior to the fire deaths.

he seems to me to be saying that although this is a conflict which involves nationalism, ethnicity and cultural heritage, it's much more about economics, where bread comes from, whether it's buttered and if so, on which side. Which means unpicking the class relationships which, sfaics from this distance, underpin the current west/east split in Ukraine at least as much as language/heritage and somewhat more than straightforward ideology, though obviously the far right capitalise on division and are probably overrepresented amongst the fighters.
 
DairyQueen said:
I thought Russia and Kazhakstan effectively negotiate together with China, and that they are all in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation. I think China and Russia will move a lot closer together, and that China welcomes what is going on.
Click to expand...

You might want to research the history of the S.C.O. That will give a clue as to why Russia was the last member to join. :)
 
Casually Red said:
wasnt aware youd served in the merchant navy as well uncle Albert

But ...the delivery of American supplies to assist the Russians do the job of actually saving you lot from the german army notwithstanding...what i was actually referring to was the British armies earlier unsuccessful and disgraceful attempt to invade a very weakened post revolution Russia and save Europe from the scourge of Bolshevism between 1918 and 19 ...as per usual when fighting anyone more dangerous than Zulus or Maoris... as part of a much wider military coalition . Giving the RAF the dubious distinction of having been the first western military power to use poison gas against civilians..often Russian jews..in eastern europe . Hitler revived this Churchllian crusade 20 years later with a lot more success mind. And ts hs followers you lot are backing in Ukraine today .

Doubt very much the Azov battalion would thank you for Murmansk. But im sure theyll thank you for the high spec offensive military equipment NATO has just announced itll be supplying them with .
Click to expand...

The British armies? I'm pretty sure the French had as many troops there as the empire did.
 
Casually Red said:
thats bollocks frankly as the liberals are never done hissing about the links i provide. Also cant help chuckling about Juliet Bravo there complaining about others being obsessive. Bit like Hitler complaining about intolerance. id suggest if you feel a poster or posters are ruining your reading experience with their obsessions you just put them on ignore and then you wont have to read it . Works for me..as the cheif constable knows.
Click to expand...

Western links bad,boo hiss, RT links totally unbiased,how come? because CR sez so.
Have a listen to yersel.
 
in that part of the world however its a very different social phenomenon. Tens of millions of people were slaughtered . Theres a burning pride in those people that they were the ones to physically destroy nazi might at an incalculable human and social cost ..leaving the westerners to mop up the dregs of the reserves . it defines their outlook and sense of self in many ways and has indelibly marked them as a people..who were afterall categorized and treated as subhumans.
Only after operation Barbarossa, they were quite comfortable cosying up to the the Nazis before that, or is it a tad embarrassing to mention that?
 
DairyQueen said:
It is his theory around the Mongols protecting Russia from European conquest is very influential and the accusations of antisemitism.

Dugin has english language blogs all over the place, he has like four websites and a book in umpteen languages. I don't think he is a fascist.

And here we have the problem. You are wanting to get in an argument about semantics. If you are really wanting a debate here, you would define it yourself. You are just barracking. Most Eurasianist movements, to me, would be based on a premise that Russia is ethnically, culturally and politically closer to Asia than Europe and so policy choices should follow from that. This is probably the opposite of what most Russians believe.
Click to expand...

It's not his theory, seen as you're referring to Dugin's borrowing of original Eurasianists Peter Savitsky and Nikolai Trubetskoy's positive re-evaluations of Russian-Mongol-Turkic interaction (an inversion of the period characterised negatively as the 'Mongol yoke'). Lev Gumilev (who knew Savitsky in the Soviet Union) shared in that positive view of the influence steppe nomads had on Russian development and he is partially popular among Central Asians (particularly Kazakhs) for that reason.

Dugin's not original in this, and he's similarly borrowed both Savitsky and Trubetskoy's understandings of Halford Mackinder's Heartland theory (obviously differently to his view of the threat posed by a Eurasian power to western imperialism).

But like you, I have not read them in the original in the English language, unless you can point to where I might find them? I admit that my own understanding is very patchy and inadequate. It relies on what others have written about them. Then there is knowledge of the currents of thought they drew their ideas from and whether you can be equipped to actually understand what they were writing about. You simply can't blag this stuff.

Which brings me to a definition of Eurasianism itself. In my own inadequacy it's impossible to give it a standard or typical set of characteristics, except in two things that all currents after the original Eurasianists of the White interwar diaspora share:

1. The belief that there is a uniqueness to Russians through a synthesis of European and Asian attributes.

2. They in some way can be linked legitimately to classical Eurasianism.

But it gets trickier when you look at the different currents. I agree with you that it's a misused or abused term particularly when it comes to Russia's national reassertion under Putin (and Russophobia is still very much around), however you're way off with regard to Dugin and fascism/the new right.

Lastly, your claim that he in some way represents a Russian version of Tony Blair (again, via the Giddens 'third way') demonstrates to me that by way of misunderstanding terminology you've conflated very different things and made yourself to look silly. I'm sorry, but that deserves ridicule, and especially when through a mixture of ignorance and arrogance you've readily dismissed things you haven't read, but are willing to offer an opinion on them all the same.

If you want to go further into that, I'm game.
 
Casually Red said:
somehow this doesnt look like an attempt to reduce any tensions. NATO will be engaging in war games exercises in Ukraine in the next few weeks. Well done .Perfect time for the junta to launch its next offensive. Which is a pretty obvious move once theyve got their defeated army reorganized and resupplied. The only reason they went for a ceasefire at all was because they were on the verge of total collapse. But this is sure to stiffen their resolve.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ps-set-to-join-Ukraine-military-exercise.html

and Chuck Hagel here denying the claims made by the junta that NATO will be supplying Kiev with modern hardware and advisors. Well hes not denying the military advisors bit..just the weapons the advisors will be advising about .

http://rt.com/news/186220-pentagon-deal-weapons-ukraine/

probably wont end well
Click to expand...

War games are scheduled years in advance. :facepalm:
 
coley said:
Western links bad,boo hiss, RT links totally unbiased,how come? because CR sez so.
Have a listen to yersel.
Click to expand...

putin.jpg
 
butchersapron said:
(co-op likes this. Note what sort of bombardment works on co-op.)
Click to expand...

:D

And your point is?

I know how much CR winds you up but this thread hasn't seen you at your finest. There's been some amazing posts on here that happily argued for a Ukrainian "govt of national unity" (that should include, in fact be dominated by, obvious fascists and far-right nationalists) go completely unchallenged by the dominant posters here. I might have missed a couple of pages but I've at least read most of it, maybe all, and I've seen very little mention of the obviously extremely nasty assault on the eastern "terrorists" that the Kiev regime immediately got under way with (to me) very little attempt to find less violent solutions. An obvious war on civilians.

I'm not a CR-ista "anti-imperialist" or whatever ideological battle you are engaged in here, I think it's clear both sides are now dominated by nasty nationalist ideology and are being stoked by rival imperial blocs, Nato and Russia. But there's been a huge bias on this thread imo, in favour of the Kiev regime. Don't know why, is it because anarchists have to celebrate all overthrow of a govt as a victory? And get trapped into supporting whatever comes afterwards?

I kind of lost interest when you started pointing out that RT is biased in favour of the Russian state. I mean, who knew?
 
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