Ukraine

[seventh bullet]

So you come out with the above and can't back it up.

Okay.

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus, the thread is 273 pages long! And my internet is a bit funny lately, so no. I've been lurking on this thread since the beginning and it's just the general impression I've got. I have a vague recollection of some people claiming that the far-right isn't seen the same way in Ukraine, and that glorifying Bandera is about his resistance to the Nazis as well as the Soviets and nothing to do with far-right politics despite appearances. Or pointing out that Right Sector/Svoboda et al are a relatively small part of the whole Maidan thing, which doesn't seem to be a nuance given to far-right presence amongst the rebels. Could be my memory playing tricks on me, but it does seem to me that people have taken definite sides in this conflict, while Casually Red et al will only criticise Kiev and gloss over anything casting the rebels in a bad light, everyone he is arguing with seems to be just as partisan. I haven't seen anyone who has been arguing with CR criticise Kiev in a long, long time.

Precisely because we established the far-right credentials of many of those on that side right back when the maidan kicked off rather than doing any of the stuff you suggest happened above. And we did it before almost everyone else - including the regional and local experts - did as well.

 

[Rimbaud]

Precisely because we established the far-right credentials of many of those on that side right back when the maidan kicked off rather than doing any of the stuff you suggest happened above. And we did it before almost everyone else - including the regional and local experts - did as well.

OK, fair does.

 

[SpackleFrog]

(all with English subs)

So, please, is you are real antifa, not that kind of venal “human rights defenders” who become as blind, deaf and dumb as the three buddist monkeys when it comes to talk about Ukraine, please, at least help to share the information.

At least two of those do not have english subtitles, unless I'm being monumentally thick. In addition it's been established sometime ago there are fash on both sides. I can share the videos but since I don't know many Russian or Ukrainian speakers I doubt they'll have much impact.

 

[rekil]

OK, fair does.

See also the 'Big Gains for Far Right in Ukraine' thread by love detective - started in Oct 2012 in the good old days before the chap who lists an Argentinian dictatorship copper/torturer as one of his heroes turned up to flood the place with his wank.

 

[CNT36]

Yeah I'm really surprised that nearly all of the criticism seems to be directed at Russia on this thread. Not that they don't deserve criticism, but people are pointing to far-right influences amongst the rebels, but were making excuses or downplaying its importance in the Maidan lot. Or just not mentioning it at all. For example the Azov Battalion who are open white supremacists and use the wolfsangel as their flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Can't find much news other than Russia Today which people seem to roll their eyes at, so I'm going to take stuff from wiki:

There are a number of seriously pro-Russia, pro- Putin people on here. It's not easy to dispute anything they say without being made to look the reverse by the end of it.

 

[Rimbaud]

There are a number of seriously pro-Russia, pro- Putin people on here. It's not easy to dispute anything they say without being made to look the reverse by the end of it.

Yes, I think that is probably the reason I have the impression I do...

 

[malatesta32]

just passing it on from a comrade.

 

[Casually Red]

See also the 'Big Gains for Far Right in Ukraine' thread by love detective - started in Oct 2012 in the good old days before the chap who lists an Argentinian dictatorship copper/torturer as one of his heroes turned up to flood the place with his wank.

personally what i regard as flooding the place with wank is a bunch of uber liberals portraying the Odessa pogrom and massacre as an own goal by the victims..fake claims about jews being forced to register..and urging support for pro western anarchist hipsters whod thrown their lot in wth the fascists ..releasing perfectly timed public statements urging the ostracising of Borotba just as the fascists were driving it and other leftists from public life..and in some cases actual life.

People defending ther own homes and towns from a fascist onslaught that saw a million drven from their homes..refugee convoys oblterated and countless homes flattened and besieged themselves being smeared as fascists on here . Desperately needed Aid trucks to besieged districts decried as an invasion force . And plenty more in that pathetic BBC type vein . That horseshit deserves to be challenged and nobody should apologize for it .

Other posters who did challenge it were pretty much hounded from the site . Others trolled and constantly pestered in an attempt to silence them .You never chipped in any of those times to challenge that inane propaganda so you can take yourself and your moral high ground and your nternet grudge off to fuck now you pompous wanker.

 

[Casually Red]

There are a number of seriously pro-Russia, pro- Putin people on here. It's not easy to dispute anything they say without being made to look the reverse by the end of it.

thatd sound a bit more believable if people were disputing the propaganda ive outlined above . Rarely happened and those who did challenge it were often demonised.

 

[butchersapron]

You bunged them all on ignore. A great thread became shit. But some people still hang around because they know that if they don't other Rimbauds will get the same impression.

edit: not a pop at rimbuad.

 

[SpackleFrog]

thatd sound a bit more believable if people were disputing the propaganda ive outlined above . Rarely happened and those who did challenge it were often demonised.

You never link to anything so nobody knows if you're talking about real or imagined propaganda.

And butchers is right - obsessive pro-Russian posters have ruined the thread which is a shame because it was my primary source of knowledge about what is going on in Ukraine.

 

[Casually Red]

Can't find much news other than Russia Today which people seem to roll their eyes at, so I'm going to take stuff from wiki:

thats your call but all that eye rolling stuff is little more than blatant attempts at censorship by a gaggle of liberals who dont want their partisan pro western line contradicted by anyone regardless of source so they take the John Kerry line of Kremlin bullhorn ..its attempted censorship and nothing less. They dont roll eyes when its the BBC or other western mouthpieces which is pure hypocrisy and double standards .

the RT piece is better so ill post it as ill get dogs abuse regardless and also because i dont like this type of online censorship being imposed by self appointed lofty arbiters who think theyve the right to determine what news sources people should be watching. Fuck em ..

http://rt.com/news/185708-nazi-symbols-ukrainian-troops/

 

[SpackleFrog]

thats your call but all that eye rolling stuff is little more than blatant attempts at censorship by a gaggle of liberals who dont want their partisan pro western line contradicted by anyone regardless of source so they take the John Kerry line of Kremlin bullhorn ..its attempted censorship and nothing less. They dont roll eyes when its the BBC or other western mouthpieces which is pure hypocrisy and double standards .

the RT piece is better so ill post it as ill get dogs abuse regardless and also because i dont like this type of online censorship being imposed by self appointed lofty arbiters who think theyve the right to determine what news sources people should be watching. Fuck em ..

http://rt.com/news/185708-nazi-symbols-ukrainian-troops/

Nobody is trying to censor your love of RT. If it suits Russian interests to tell the truth RT will tell the truth. We just wish you didn't think it was some kind of pure media source removed from the capitalist system entirely.

 

[Casually Red]

You never link to anything so nobody knows if you're talking about real or imagined propaganda.

And butchers is right - obsessive pro-Russian posters have ruined the thread which is a shame because it was my primary source of knowledge about what is going on in Ukraine.

thats bollocks frankly as the liberals are never done hissing about the links i provide. Also cant help chuckling about Juliet Bravo there complaining about others being obsessive. Bit like Hitler complaining about intolerance. id suggest if you feel a poster or posters are ruining your reading experience with their obsessions you just put them on ignore and then you wont have to read it . Works for me..as the cheif constable knows.

 

[SpackleFrog]

thats bollocks frankly as the liberals are never done hissing about the links i provide. Also cant help chuckling about Juliet Bravo there complaining about others being obsessive. Bit like Hitler complaining about intolerance. id suggest if you feel a poster or posters are ruining your reading experience with their obsessions you just put them on ignore and then you wont have to read it . Works for me..as the cheif constable knows.

I hate putting people on ignore cos it disrupts my reading of the thread. I prefer to try to reason with people.

Are you seriously calling me a liberal?

 

[seventh bullet]

thats bollocks frankly as the liberals are never done hissing about the links i provide. Also cant help chuckling about Juliet Bravo there complaining about others being obsessive. Bit like Hitler complaining about intolerance. id suggest if you feel a poster or posters are ruining your reading experience with their obsessions you just put them on ignore and then you wont have to read it . Works for me..as the cheif constable knows.

You click to view ignored posts, though. Like this one.

 

[butchersapron]

You click to view ignored posts, though. Like this one.

It's the anti-fascist way. Claim to have them on ignore then read their posts. Then feel no responsibility to reply. If only anti-fascists had felt such urge to act responsibly historically. He wouldn't have his iconography or worldview at all. He spits on the fighters. His approach is Franco's victory.

 

[seventh bullet]

I hate putting people on ignore cos it disrupts my reading of the thread. I prefer to try to reason with people.

Are you seriously calling me a liberal?

He puts people on ignore when he doesn't like being challenged or contradicted or shown up. It's got nothing to do with people being liberals. He'll find some way to explain it, other than not liking having to defend his positions.

 

[Casually Red]

Nobody is trying to censor your love of RT. If it suits Russian interests to tell the truth RT will tell the truth. We just wish you didn't think it was some kind of pure media source removed from the capitalist system entirely.

people constantly complaining about RT being linked to..and not just by me..patently want people to stop linking to it or quoting from it . As a post above from someone else shows theyve largely succeeded n preventing people from linking to it by constant badgering and ridicule... making people prefer to avoid the inevitable hassle.Thats an attempt at online censorship thats largely succeeded on here.

i prefer it as a news source because its simply been a lot better on this crisis than the BBC and pretty much all the nodding dog western ones who question nothing no matter how ridiculous ..apart from maybe Seamus Milne at the Guardian..a lone voice there pretty much. Who RT have managed to interview a few times as well .

eta

no..havent called you a liberal . No idea what your outlook is.

 

[butchersapron]

He puts people on ignore when he doesn't like being challenged or contradicted or shown up. It's got nothing to do with people being liberals. He'll find some way to explain it, other than not liking having to defend his positions.

He loves having to defend his positions - he's honed them against liberals. It's when he has to defend them against non-liberals that he gets into you're on ignore trouble. There's a whole world of people who he can beat with reworded RT news reports confidently stated as fact and videos in two languages that he can't understand but nevertheless tells us what they say. That's his liberal audience.

Here? Not so much.

 

[Casually Red]

somehow this doesnt look like an attempt to reduce any tensions. NATO will be engaging in war games exercises in Ukraine in the next few weeks. Well done .Perfect time for the junta to launch its next offensive. Which is a pretty obvious move once theyve got their defeated army reorganized and resupplied. The only reason they went for a ceasefire at all was because they were on the verge of total collapse. But this is sure to stiffen their resolve.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ps-set-to-join-Ukraine-military-exercise.html

and Chuck Hagel here denying the claims made by the junta that NATO will be supplying Kiev with modern hardware and advisors. Well hes not denying the military advisors bit..just the weapons the advisors will be advising about .

http://rt.com/news/186220-pentagon-deal-weapons-ukraine/

probably wont end well

 

[SpackleFrog]

people constantly complaining about RT being linked to..and not just by me..patently want people to stop linking to it or quoting from it . As a post above from someone else shows theyve largely succeeded n preventing people from linking to it by constant badgering and ridicule... making people prefer to avoid the inevitable hassle.Thats an attempt at online censorship thats largely succeeded on here.

i prefer it as a news source because its simply been a lot better on this crisis than the BBC and pretty much all the nodding dog western ones who question nothing no matter how ridiculous ..apart from maybe Seamus Milne at the Guardian..a lone voice there pretty much. Who RT have managed to interview a few times as well .

eta

no..havent called you a liberal . No idea what your outlook is.

People don't complain about you posting RT links. People complain because you state things you see/read on RT as undisputed fact. Most Urbs are well aware that Western media acts as a mouthpiece for Western governments a lot of the time - the point is you recognise that but you don't seem to understand that the same applies to Russian news agencies who act as a mouthpiece for Russia a lot of the time.

I read/watch RT. It's useful. But part of the reason it's useful is to understand the Russian capitalist class an their narrative - it's no use believing it to be fact.

 

[Casually Red]

Fidel Castro and his army seen by Poroshenko surrounding Mariupol.
Red Indians marching on Kiev says Kerry.
Russian troops moving suspiciously around Russia warns NATO.

 

[teqniq]

You bunged them all on ignore. A great thread became shit. But some people still hang around because they know that if they don't other Rimbauds will get the same impression.

edit: not a pop at rimbuad.

I sometimes wonder if he's got over half of U75 on ignore. Don't like something you hear Casually Red? It's a bit like sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'lalalalala'.

 

[Casually Red]

People don't complain about you posting RT links. People complain because you state things you see/read on RT as undisputed fact. Most Urbs are well aware that Western media acts as a mouthpiece for Western governments a lot of the time - the point is you recognise that but you don't seem to understand that the same applies to Russian news agencies who act as a mouthpiece for Russia a lot of the time.

I read/watch RT. It's useful. But part of the reason it's useful is to understand the Russian capitalist class an their narrative - it's no use believing it to be fact.

bollocks..I even stopped linking to RT myself at one point because of the dogs abuse and derailing it resulted In. Im assuming youve now become willfully blind to the other poster who stated he wouldnt link to RT because of the reaction hed get. And willfully blind to those whove linked to western news sources and stating that as fact..because you dont upbraid them over it . id suggest you either show some consistency on the subject or respectfully ask you drop the subject .

theyre grudge nursing whinging oul bitter bastards who complain that i havent been banned long ago and even do snidey pm campaigns to try and get me banned. They complain because theyre a bunch of wankers who like hounding posters off their site and just havent succeeded with me yet. Their complaint is that im posting at all..not the subject matter. Thats just a smokescreen.

 

[DairyQueen]

I would agree, in part (you mean Dugin's movement specifically?).

But I was referring to the previous nonsense, so let's recap:

Western understandings of Russian thought (which borrows from western European thought) in books you haven't read aren't much use.

I'm a racist who thinks that through their traditions Russian people prefer authoritarian rule and are to be expected to have nostalgic feelings for Stalinism (which is 'western' in important ways).

It's not good form to post a photo of Alain Soral insulting victims and survivors of the Holocaust, yet he wrote the foreword to Dugin's book you linked to and haven't read.

Dugin isn't fascist or can't be placed on the far right and is actually like Tony Blair (via Giddens).

Eurasianism both classical and contemporary (see the third line) is irrelevant (we were talking about Eurasianism in the first place).

You're trolling, right?

Is this the point where I come out with a seventh bullet-style "you are putting words in my mouth" tantrums? Not all of Lev Gumilev's work is inaccessible, and certainly accessible if you know Russians who can explain to you what he has written.

The rest is nonsense. I don't agree with Dugin, but I don't think he is a fascist. You do. I have read Dugin's work. The underlying basis of his work is not dissimilar from the crap you get in the west, particularly in Britain. The fact he had a far-right activist foreward his book is not particularly relevant, but consistent with the types of people in western europe he is seeking to influence.

I said Eurasianist social movements (i.e., identifiable 'Eurasianists') are not particularly relevant in Russian politics today. At no point did I argue that it has always been insignificant. However I am not aware of a mass 'Eurasianist' movement, that could be easily differentiated from other movements, that were so influential they had much bearing on the Russian politique.

 

[seventh bullet]

You don't know what Dugin's politics are, nevermind disagreeing with them. And you haven't read him. Tony Blair ffs.

You still haven't told me what Eurasinism is.

 

[seventh bullet]

And what is the focus just on Gumilev by the way? Why not Savitsky or Trubetskoy? Alain de Benoist, Halford Mackinder, Carl Schmitt, Julius Evola? Tony Blair?

Don't bullshit. I am not going to pretend. It's easy to drop names, isn't it.

 

[DairyQueen]

It is his theory around the Mongols protecting Russia from European conquest is very influential and the accusations of antisemitism.

Dugin has english language blogs all over the place, he has like four websites and a book in umpteen languages. I don't think he is a fascist.

And here we have the problem. You are wanting to get in an argument about semantics. If you are really wanting a debate here, you would define it yourself. You are just barracking. Most Eurasianist movements, to me, would be based on a premise that Russia is ethnically, culturally and politically closer to Asia than Europe and so policy choices should follow from that. This is probably the opposite of what most Russians believe.