Ukraine

[seventh bullet]

Open whites. Proud whites. Open racists. Proud racists. Open jew-haters. Proud jew-haters. How far do you have to shut your eyes not be able to see them? Why would you shut your eyes so far and what does doing so mean as regards how far people can trust you? Is just saying anti-fascist going to paper over the cracks forever? This could be any society,almost anywhere.

The difference in the two sides is the make up of their backing is it not?

So forgive me if I'm wrong here, but a fascist small businessman (and former member of a neo-Nazi organisation in Russia, its current members recently joining the armed separatists) and other anti-Semites, racists and White Guard nostalgists linked to a far-right, Jew-hating newspaper and Russian nationalist/Eurasianist think tank will soon get to formally run the Abkhazia-like state of Novorossiya on behalf of Russian imperialism.

The man in the centre is the son of Alexander Barkashov, leader of RNE.

What is good about the above?

How much more of this 'anti-fascist' crap are we going to see from you and your mate Casually Google?

 

[laptop]

Fascists are anti-fascist. Fascists have always been anti-fascist.

 

[Idris2002]

Fascists are anti-fascist. Fascists have always been anti-fascist.

"You are witness to the birth of Spinal Tap Mark 2. Hope you like our new direction."

 

[Casually Red]

I can guess which side CR is on, are you a fascist?
Is it your contention the fascists don't lie or renounce their beliefs.
If they are genuine fascists would they not be on the side with a superior force.
Perhaps they are moles, if so I imagine they will be found out and dealt with accordingly.
Why don't you go in there yourself and ask the anti government force to put down their guns and do their research on all recruits.

its been typical of the Urbanmaidan uber liberals throughout to eep very quiet on the fact their fellow Ukrainian libertarians ..with some pro EU breast beating... effectively and shamefully threw their lot in with the neo nazis and NATO very early on in this. And ever since have seized on snippets from social media highlighting the presence of pro Russian chauvinists among the more militarist and colourful fringes of the DPR fighters... some of whom even include Afghan and chechen Muslims...yet they dont categorise the resistance as an Islamic uprising due to their presence ..merely a fascist one due to the presence of a few headbangers among a mass movement defending their own homes and districts . An entire peoples struggle against mass suppression and political and ethnic intolerance by nazis and pro nazis which they demonise as pro fascist on the flimsiest of grounds . With the only beneficaries of such propaganda being the nazis themselves and their NATO sponsors.

Without the support and participation en masse of the local population in the resistance there simply couldnt be any any resistance ..much less such such resounding victories for it in the face of such concentrated military might .Completely ignoring the fact the backbone of the anti fascist resistance comprises the ordinary masses of workers. People ive already highlighted but whove either been ignored or dismissed on the grounds a link doesnt meet the lofty standards of British uberliberals..and others such as these..10000 striking miners chanting anti fascist slogans carryng anti fascist banners ..the very people whose homes and towns are being flattened. These people and their struggle are actually fascist according to the libertarian wisdom mongers. Because theyve a link to some punter on facebook .

Around a million more such subhumans have had to flee to safety in Russia from a concentration of openly self identifyng nazis carrying out wanton destruction and mass murder . Workers ..particularly subhuman workers.. defending their homes and their language from fascists are not fascists..they are by any definition antifascist . Nether are the non Russian Ukrainian leftists whove had to flee to the east for sanctuary from fascist persecution which has been rife outside the resisting districts. The massacre in Odessa ..which some antifascists here even tried to spin as people slaughtering themselves n lne with the kev propaganda..gives one a flavour of what opposing that regime means for dissenters..and why ordinary workers would take up a gun to resist it ..but no..in liberal la la land that resistance is either fascism itself or Putin sending in the troops . The people..the masses whove taken a stand are little more than an inconvenience to the narrative and simply dismissed..even though over a million of them have fled their largely destroyed homes.

And anyone demonising them as fascist or tools of Putin is a dyed in the wool libertarian lackey of fascism the EU and NATO imperialism ...a role their fellow libertarians in Ukraine took to like fifth columnist ducks to water from the outset.






and an interview wth one of the troops sent to stamp the same people out . Even he has a better perspective than the elders of liberal wisdom on here . Fucing Turchinov should sign a few of them up to his media department. Theyd just have to switch the insult terrorist for fascist and theyd fit right in .

 

[Casually Red]

an afghan fighter here explaining what hes fighting against..obvious fash..plainly. Probably a white supremacist to boot...

 

[seventh bullet]

The far right aren't on the fringes. They are in the self-appointed Novorossiya 'goverment.'

And it is rather silly to see this goverment and its militiamen as being representative of the mass of people in the the whole contested region/s. How can we know right now?

I agree with you that whatever inconveniences a certain narrative is simply dismissed.

Have you actually looked at the Novorossiya site? Dugin is quite prominent. What would you say his politics are?

 

[Fuchs66]

an afghan fighter here explaining what hes fighting against..obvious fash..plainly. Probably a white supremacist to boot...

Not that unusual historically.

 

[gimesumtruf]

You are right I have been looking at East Ukraine and Russia through rose tinted specs believing them to being on the side of justice and good sense.
I see the picture here between the West and the East and I want the west ideology crushed.
As you have discovered I am not highly educated, but I do know Orwell fought in Spain and found that the communists were split and not to his liking, is this not what is happening in the East even though it appears to me that they are on the side of right as Orwell’s communists (in my opinion) were.
If I’m wrong again, I cede to your greater knowledge and will bow out.

 

[phildwyer]

Not that unusual historically.

Yes, that unusual historically. The Bosnian SS was a total fiasco.

 

[Fuchs66]

Yes, that unusual historically. The Bosnian SS was a total fiasco.

What does their effectiveness have to do with anything? I'm sure the Afghan contingent in Ukraine are even less effective in the field.

 

[phildwyer]

What does their effectiveness have to do with anything?

It reflects their utter lack of ideological commitment.

 

[Fuchs66]

It reflects their utter lack of ideological commitment.

Not necessarily, they may have just been crap. Are you aware of the true ideological commitment of the Afghan chap?

 

[phildwyer]

Not necessarily, they may have just been crap.

No, they were crap because Muslims make very bad Nazis. They had trouble recruiting, many of their recruits turned out to be Catholics, they had zero interest in Nazi racial expansionism etc.

 

[Fuchs66]

No, they were crap because Muslims make very bad Nazis. They had trouble recruiting, many of their recruits turned out to be Catholics, they had zero interest in Nazi racial expansionism etc.

They certainly did/do sympathise with a few of the aims of the Nazis though and, especially the Bosnian contingent, had shared enemies.

 

[phildwyer]

shared enemies.

That´s about the size of it. Muslim sympathy with Nazism has always been and will always be strictly circumscribed by the insurmountable obstacle of racism.

 

[Fuchs66]

That´s about the size of it. Muslim sympathy with Nazism has always been and will always be strictly circumscribed by the insurmountable obstacle of racism.

Doesn't stop them playing along when needs demand though, and they also make for good propaganda on occasions.

 

[DairyQueen]

The far right aren't on the fringes. They are in the self-appointed Novorossiya 'goverment.'

And it is rather silly to see this goverment and its militiamen as being representative of the mass of people in the the whole contested region/s. How can we know right now?

I agree with you that whatever inconveniences a certain narrative is simply dismissed.

Have you actually looked at the Novorossiya site? Dugin is quite prominent. What would you say his politics are?

I tend to prefer to look fascism, communism, and capitalism through a lens of which segment of society has power. One theory would suggest that the mainstay of fascism is the petite bourgeoisie. And mainstay of communism is the proletariat. It would be interesting to work out which ideology's mainstay is the lumpenproletariat!! This is why I have tried to refrain from using fascist too much, but probably have lapsed into it. However, I think ethnic conflict like these it is easy to showhorn ideologies. In all probability, the eastern government is similar in class hierarchy to the western government and the social composition of the supporters are very similar too.

Dugin is quite an interesting character who certainly appears to have flirted with outright fascist ideology (National Bolshevikism). However, I think it is an easy caricature to label him a fascist (granted you did not do so in your post). From my experience, Russian political philosophy deals with fascism and communism in a different way to the west (most of the time it is better in my opinion). It is not too uncommon for western governments (particularly America) to be viewed as fascist. While I do not follow Dugin, or am a supporter, my understanding was that he talks about finding synthesis between fascism and communism, in a very classical sense. Without wishing to be hyperbolic here and as depressing as it may sound, my understanding is that Dugin's theories are not too different from Blair's third way thesis in this respect (granted Russia is more of a superpower than Britain).

 

[DairyQueen]

All the political systems of the modern age have been the products of three distinct ideologies: the first, and oldest, is liberal democracy; the second is Marxism; and the third is fascism. The latter two have long since failed and passed out of the pages of history, and the first no longer operates as an ideology, but rather as something taken for granted. The world today finds itself on the brink of a post-political reality - one in which the values of liberalism are so deeply embedded that the average person is not aware that there is an ideology at work around him. As a result, liberalism is threatening to monopolise political discourse and drown the world in a universal sameness, destroying everything that makes the various cultures and peoples unique. According to Alexander Dugin, what is needed to break through this morass is a fourth ideology - one that will sift through the debris of the first three to look for elements that might be useful, but that remains innovative and unique in itself. Dugin does not offer a point-by-point program for this new theory, but rather outlines the parameters within which it might develop and the issues which it must address. Dugin foresees that the Fourth Political Theory will use the tools and concepts of modernity against itself, to bring about a return of cultural diversity against commercialisation, as well as the traditional worldview of all the peoples of the world - albeit within an entirely new context. Written by a scholar who is actively influencing the direction of Russian geopolitical strategy today, The Fourth Political Theory is an introduction to an idea that may well shape the course of the world's political future. Alexander Dugin (b. 1962) is one of the best-known writers and political commentators in post-Soviet Russia. In addition to the many books he has authored on political, philosophical and spiritual topics, he currently serves on the staff of Moscow State University, and is the intellectual leader of the Eurasia Movement. For more than a decade, he has also been an advisor to Vladimir Putin and others in the Kremlin on geopolitical matters, being a vocal advocate of a return of Russian power to the global stage, to act as a counterweight to American domination.

From Dugin's book.

 

[seventh bullet]

Yes, with a foreword by Alain Soral.

According to Amazon his book is bought alongside Alain de Benoist and Generation Identitaire, a milieu from which a few former associates/clowns who are now part of some tiny Eurasianist-inspired groupsicle are currently strolling around Donetsk in military fatigues.

We've been over this before about Dugin and Russia (and butchersapron is better informed about this sort of politics more widely) but read this, which again is a part of this decent book (posted it a few months back). Laruelle is good on contemporary Russian nationalist politics.

CR has sprinkled a recent post with Mackinderese (whether he's picked it up from Team NATO or Team Russia I don't know) so try this for some background. Also relevant to Dugin. Lastly, an interesting area of Russian thought.

You are right I have been looking at East Ukraine and Russia through rose tinted specs believing them to being on the side of justice and good sense.
I see the picture here between the West and the East and I want the west ideology crushed.
As you have discovered I am not highly educated, but I do know Orwell fought in Spain and found that the communists were split and not to his liking, is this not what is happening in the East even though it appears to me that they are on the side of right as Orwell’s communists (in my opinion) were.
If I’m wrong again, I cede to your greater knowledge and will bow out.

It's not about being 'highly educated ' (I hate that exclusive-type shit). It's about being informed, something you can very easily do.

 

[Casually Red]

Not that unusual historically.

those are actually Bosnians..which is absolutely nowhere near Afghanistan . You appear to be conflating all Muslims as pro nazis for reasons best known to yourself...something we wouldnt dream of doing with people from a white western Christan background..or even a German one . A pretty dodgy post in all respects . Particularly when the afghan in question ...not a Bosnian..goes to great pains to highlight hes taing a personal stand against the racial demonisaton of slavs by the west in order to justify their persecution. Which is what the nazis and their Ustasha allies engaged in as well . Just as numerous Bosnian Muslims also too a stand against it when they joined Titos partisans to fight against fascism .

Germany and NATO of course supported the Handschar divisions ideological heirs in Croatia while they were destroying Yugoslavia..along with the Ustashas . Just as today theyre supporting Banderas heirs fulfill their historical program today. The old alles remain the new allies.

what next ? post up a photo of the japanese army and say those chinamen are all the same ?

 

[Fuchs66]

those are actually Bosnians..which is absolutely nowhere near Afghanistan . You appear to be conflating all Muslims as pro nazis for reasons best known to yourself...something we wouldnt dream of doing with people from a white western Christan background..or even a German one . A pretty dodgy post in all respects .

Germany and NATO of course supported their ideological heirs in Croatia while they were destroying Yugoslavia. Just as today theyre supporting Banderas heirs fulfill their historical program today.

and you appear to be making your own wild interpretation of what I said, a very dodgy way of discussing an issue but nothing unusual for you is it?
Now run along and do one old chap!

 

[Casually Red]

What does their effectiveness have to do with anything? I'm sure the Afghan contingent in Ukraine are even less effective in the field.

what the fuck have Afghans to do with Bosnians ? they dont remotely speak the same language have a completely dfferent hstory and arent even from the same continent .

why are you persisting with this risible horseshit ?

 

[Casually Red]

That´s about the size of it. Muslim sympathy with Nazism has always been and will always be strictly circumscribed by the insurmountable obstacle of racism.

and geography..and history..and morality and common human decency . Just like with anyone else. Muslims arent any more an amorphous single entity than Roman Catholics are. Strayed into well dodgy ground this .

 

[Fuchs66]

what the fuck have Afghans to do with Bosnians ? they dont remotely speak the same language have a completely dfferent hstory and arent even from the same continent .

why are you persisting with this risible horseshit ?

They don't have a great deal to do with each other apart from a shared religion but I never said they did, did I? My main point is that nazis and other far right nationalist movements aren't as fussy as they may appear to be, from their normally racist rhetoric, when it comes to finding helping hands.

 

[Casually Red]

I see the picture here between the West and the East and I want the west ideology crushed.
.

me too..they are utter bastards and should be stopped in their tracks here before they drag the entire world to the abyss.

End of history my balls.

 

[Casually Red]

They don't have a great deal to do with each other apart from a shared religion but I never said they did, did I? My main point is that nazis and other far right nationalist movements aren't as fussy as they may appear to be, from their normally racist rhetoric, when it comes to finding helping hands.

slavs would appear to be the massive elephant in your racial profiling room .

eta

as does the fact Afghans and the soviet union were allies in a very bloody war . Something this chap actually speaks about if you bothered to listen to what johnny foreigner had to say . NATOs jihadist proxies murdered his father and destroyed his country .

 

[coley]

me too..they are utter bastards and should be stopped in their tracks here before they drag the entire world to the abyss.

End of history my balls.

Well you won't help it happen just sitting there, gird your loins and join them, hurry up now and don't forget to write, bye

 

[Fuchs66]

slavs would appear to be the massive elephant in your racial profiling room .

eta

as does the fact Afghans and the soviet union were allies in a very bloody war . Something this chap actually speaks about if you bothered to listen to what johnny foreigner had to say . NATOs jihadist proxies murdered his father and destroyed his country .

Are you claiming all Russians are slavs? I would suggest it is you who is using racial profiling.

And good that you mentioned the Afghan war as Russian troops and their proxies do seem to be using similar tactics in the Ukraine.

 

[Casually Red]

Are you claiming all Russians are slavs? I would suggest it is you who is using racial profiling.

And good that you mentioned the Afghan war as Russian troops and their proxies do seem to be using similar tactics in the Ukraine.

The people hes risking his life defending in south eastern Ukraine are predominantly slavs..or subhumans..as the Kiev administration refers to them .

Again i strongly suggest you take the time to listen to what Johnny foreigner actually has to say on the issue of race before you open your gob again and lazily compare him to a Bosnian nazi sympathizer simply because hes from a Muslim background.

And if you have any proof that Russia has actually invaded i suggest you show it to NATO pronto..as they could certainly do with it having been unable to substantiate their own claims . Then you can share it with us later .

 

[Casually Red]

Doesn't stop them playing along when needs demand though, and they also make for good propaganda on occasions.