Ukraine

[pocketscience]

Lie upon lie from Kiev and the West, it's getting so crass. So what if Russians are fighting there, it's to be expected.

Things would be a whole lot rosier if the Kiev government could send their fascist henchmen.. er, sorry, democratic love to East Ukraine without those pesky Russians spoiling the party.

 

[Casually Red]

it seems to me these latest accusations against moscow are directly related to a massive turnaround in the Donbass fighters military fortunes in recent days . There were a few on here crowing about rats leavng a sinking ship etc after some public faces had stood down . What it looks lie though is this was actually a genuine shift in strategy with totally different thinking and strategy . Donbass appears to have abandoned the small unit irregular strategy its previous leaders had been persuing and opted for a much more traditional military approach . Basically they have an entire army now surrounded and cut off in a Stalingrad pocket type situation.
id initially been suspicious of this report as it seemed so at odds with the Donbass peoples military setbacks

After sustained defensive combat against Ukrainian troops in the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk during August, rebels are now reporting entrapping two large groups of Kiev troops and seizing military hardware in a counteroffensive.

The main headquarters of the DPR army has made a decision to stop operations in small groups and form full-bodied independent military units, the anti-Kiev forces say in a summary of their operations filed on Sunday

http://rt.com/news/182404-donetsk-forces-trap-hardware/

but it appears to be true . Theyve completely outmaneuvered the juntas armed forces..theyre trapped and cut off after a massive counter offensive in the last few days . Putins now calling on the militia to permit a humanitarian corridor for the captured army to withdraw . Militia say theyll permit that providing the troops abandon their equipment


http://rt.com/news/183520-ukraine-russia-putin-militia/

A stunning turn around for the militia in the past few days. Wow..im impressed

 

[TopCat]

"
President Vladimir Putin blamed the Ukrainian government for the crisis, comparing its siege of two cities held by separatists, Donetsk and Luhansk, to the siege of Leningrad by the Nazis in World War Two.

"It is necessary to make the Ukrainian authorities start substantial talks [with the rebels]," he said." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28984241

So it seems the Russians now admit they have crossed the border and are openly supporting the rebels against the Kiev forces.

There is a big part of me going "Go on Putti Poot!"

 

[treelover]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/29/russia-ukraine-war-asking


Seems that much of the public and especially the Russian soldiers families are not aware of the fatalities amongst the soldiers involved in the incursion or even they are there, until they come home in body bags, back to the future then..

 

[treelover]

Not sure if this article from the Telegraph has been posted. It's a few weeks old now but I've only just stumbled across it. "Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists". Interesting part in it about foreign fighters from Ireland, Italy, Greece and Sweden, one of whom plans to travel to Syria and fight for Assad in the future.

very disturbing, they will surely be involved in atrocities at some point

 

[dylanredefined]

very disturbing, they will surely be involved in atrocities at some point

Civil wars are never civil. With or without nazis.

 

[scalyboy]

and if she did take it as a racial slur i sincerely apologize while equally insisting it wasnt any such thing

Presumably as sincere as the apology you made following your ill-advised 'joke' about being mugged by a black man who you didn't see in the dark, cos they all look the same
If you don't want to come across as a racist fuckwit, don't use racist fuckwit language/sterotypes. Or indeed homophobic language.
Bit of advice there.

 

[Casually Red]

fuck off

 

[Casually Red]

"
President Vladimir Putin blamed the Ukrainian government for the crisis, comparing its siege of two cities held by separatists, Donetsk and Luhansk, to the siege of Leningrad by the Nazis in World War Two.

"It is necessary to make the Ukrainian authorities start substantial talks [with the rebels]," he said." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28984241

So it seems the Russians now admit they have crossed the border and are openly supporting the rebels against the Kiev forces.

There is a big part of me going "Go on Putti Poot!"

personally im taking that stuff with a large dose of salt. Seems to be a fair amount of outrage amongst NATO forces that the Donbass army have achieved such a stunning turn around when just weeks ago they were on a major back foot and besieged. NATO are plainly raging about their allies reversal . And accusations against Russia seem little more than a smokescreen to cover their own threat of direct intervention by signing up the juntas forces . Putins demands for the junta to begn talks wth Donbass seem to me to be very sensible . Because the simple fact is unless they do those surrounded troops are going to be wiped out . And the junta are ordering them to keep fighting . After initially denyng they had been surrounded.

According to the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) of Ukraine, information about thousands troops being pinned down in the east of the country is not true. The council says “not a single serviceman” has been surrounded during the last three days and that troops continue to successfully attack “territory temporarily occupied by terrorists.”

Basically from what i can see the NATO chief spokesperson is reacting to the current defeat of their fascist clients by threatening to directly intervene in the conflict . Foghs Rasmussen is trying to drag us to the brink of war .

 

[gosub]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/nato...e-decision-to-try-to-join-alliance-1409324690

Why they had to have a special conference today to push things into a high wire act when there is a full blown conference next week.


The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. WB. Yates

 

[Casually Red]

.

jesus i thought Putin was drole but that guy could be his tutor . Asking the junta send more armour to the region as the recyled metal assists their metal industry . Pointing out the junta had promised to parade its troops and armour through Donetsk on the 24th...so they were only facilitating that promise with the display of captured POWs and destroyed tanks.

the DPR doesnt seem to have the air of a sinking ship to it..thats for sure.

 

[Casually Red]

dp

 

[quiquaquo]

Poland as usual: http://rt.com/news/183736-defense-minister-plane-russia/

"Poland closes airspace to Russian defense minister's plane, demands 'non-military' flight status"

 

[Casually Red]

Actually this is a good example of you twisting the meaning of what has been said. Earlier you said



Firstly he was saying that those who sponsored the "Donbass resistance" were subhumans not that they were. You also claim that he was saying that first they will wipe out the fighters and therefore when he says "cleaning our land", he can not be referring to the militias and therefore must be referring to the rest of the population as a whole. But what he said was "we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them and then by cleaning our land from the evil." So he wasn't necessarily referring to all the fighters but those who specifically shot down the military plane. And therefore the 'evil' in the second part doesn't necessarily refer to the population as a whole and the most obvious interpretation is that it refers to the armed militias. And there is absolutely no indication that this was a declaration of intent to ethnically cleanse eastern Ukraine.

im afraid your beng jesuitical to the point of disingenuous. Ratsenyuk has been educated within the soviet system..he knows full well the implication behind using the word subhuman in this context...a word that carries serous ideological baggage particularly in the east. And not simply in an off the cuff remark but in a thought out statement. Using the term subhuman to describe opponents who were officially classed and treated as such under nazi theory ...in the current context of inter ethnic strife..an administration frequently comprising current and former neo nazis ..the state sponsored upsurge of pro Hitler Banderism ..state rehabilitation of the UPA and Galician SS as national heroes..and the abundance of neo nazi paramilitary groups and the previous attack on the Russian language is no accident . To attempt as you do to completely divorce it from its glaringly obvious context and maintain its use carries no ideological baggage is an exercise in deliberate dishonesty .

Youve constructed your entire debunking around your outright dismissal of the translation of the Defence Minsters statement simply because you dont like the source . You neither provide or even attempt to point to any alternative or evidence of it being disputed by anyone. Or suggest why a political party from that part of the world would host a youtube video that anyone from that part of the world could immediately recognise as false . You also disregard the fact koval also openly talks elsewhere about the necessity of a 10 km demilitarized buffer zone along the Russian border . it stands to reason such an envisaged no mans land would by necessity require wholesale population clearance also .

And finally you dismiss outright the report in the kievpost..despite it being a well known pro western and pro junta organ . So highly unlikely to be engaged in black propaganda against its own side . No theory as to why they would make such a report up..just simple dismissal because its an inconvenient report...just like the inconvenient translation

 

[Casually Red]

Firstly he was saying that those who sponsored the "Donbass resistance" were subhumans not that they were. .

wrong...youre quoting CNN not the direct source which s the embassy website

heres what he says...again

hes clearly saying the Russians..as in the Russian state .. are invaders and the local Donbass fighters are subhumans sponsored by the invaders.

 

[Casually Red]

Poroshenko announced that Ukraine will spend some $3 billion on re-equipping the army in 2015-2017

I wonder where he'll be buying the kit from and more importantly where the money's coming from?

Rasmussen has announced NATO will be setting up 4 seperate trust funds for their client military that nations can fund . So basically itll come out of our taxes..our pockets .

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/747269

 

[Casually Red]

very disturbing, they will surely be involved in atrocities at some point

##ts probably safe to say they already have been. The report mentions they have the most chilling reputation of all but doesnt stipulate how they earned it . saw an interview with one Donbass commander who openly states he orders his men to differentiate between those scum and the regular Army . And insists they dont tae any fascists prisoner. They execute them summarily just like the SS were treated .

 

[gimesumtruf]

It's just a feeling but I think the Russians have had enough and may take considerable action before the end of next week.
Of course I'm sticking my neck out, but so what. I think it's hot, hot, hot.

 

[Casually Red]

It's just a feeling but I think the Russians have had enough and may taken considerable action before the end of next week.
I course I'm sticking my neck out, but so what. I think it's hot, hot, hot.

theres simply no way theyre going to permit a NATO force to be straddling their entire border . Not a chance ...theyll act regardless of western sanctions or isolation . Because the consequences of full NATO encirclement will be a lot worse .
Some time back Putin spoke of the USA beng the only nation on earth to have committed nuclear terrorism..twice . And for the most cynical reason..to prevent a japanese surrender to the Russians .He said Russia has never forgotten this chilling fact and knows this is the apocalyptic mindset they are up against . Theyll regard NATO encirclement as an existential threat and would be very stupid not to .

 

[gimesumtruf]

I just heard that Russian hating Nato loving Poland was the 51st state of America and there was I thinking that Britain was, see I am aware I can be very wrong.

 

[likesfish]

Well Casually red the russians treated all their neighbours like we treated brown people and arnt even embarrsed about it so it cant be suprised if people think promoting SS vetrans as the ultimate fuck you russia

 

[DairyQueen]

I think a chunk of the Ukrainian army is now encircled in the east. It is close to being over. I wonder when they will get some sort of peace deal.

 

[Casually Red]

Well Casually red the russians treated all their neighbours like we treated brown people and arnt even embarrsed about it so it cant be suprised if people think promoting SS vetrans as the ultimate fuck you russia

posted this a few pages back..its stomach churning but worth bearing in mind when flinging accusations around about how certain people treated others .

caution..v graphic

http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2578-europeans-seems-you-are-shameless.html

 

[Casually Red]

I think a chunk of the Ukrainian army is now encircled in the east. It is close to being over. I wonder when they will get some sort of peace deal.

dont think so meself..NATO is patently urging war and confrontation and simply isnt interested in putting the junta under any pressure to negotiate a solution. The junta are refusing to allow their troops withdraw through the corridor. NATO seems to be demanding a military solution to dissent in Ukraine. And the time has now probably passed were a federalist solution could even be found. With so much blood shed and govt talk of subhumans that train has probably left the station .

this analyst seems to think the DPR will only have the momentum to keep the offensive up for a few more days before they stop and consolidate...returning once more to the defensive attrition they excel at

http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140827/...Continue-Advance-on-Mariupol-for-Another.html

so it could well drag on for a while yet. Meanwhile the words i keep seeing to describe the predicament of the trapped fascist forces are ones lie cauldron and kettle...sounds pretty awful. f they dont withdraw as offered theyll most likely be slaughtered. Totally needless waste of life just because their superiors dont want to be embarassed by Russias offer of safe conduct .

 

[Combustible]

hes clearly saying the Russians..as in the Russian state .. are invaders and the local Donbass fighters are subhumans sponsored by the invaders.

Is he? The quote says "facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by them subhumans". It is grammatically incorrect but I don't see how you say from that from that he is calling the fighters subhumans. "sponsored by them subhumans" seems to much more obviously suggest he is calling those who sponsor them (the Russian government) subhumans and this matches with the CNN translation which actually makes sense.

But the next sentence is the same in both that picture and the CNN article and there is nothing to suggest it is referring to the Russian population of eastern Ukraine.

The Kyiv Post article has one sentence at the top and you have to pay for the rest. Can you post what the rest of the article says or are you basing this all on the one sentence?

 

[Combustible]

In fact there is something about it on the website of the Ukraine Land Agency

http://land.gov.ua/en/news-en.html?...-will-receive-land-plots&catid=120:top-novyny

Relevant ministries and agencies are completing the lists of military, who are directly involved in counter-terrorist operations and want to get free land plots for the execution of the Cabinet of Ministers’ of Ukraine assignment concerning the realization of the initiative on the implementation of the program of providing the social assistance to families of military from Armed Forces of Ukraine, State Border Guard Service of Ukraine, Ministry for Internal Affairs of Ukraine, Security Service of Ukraine, - said the SALR Chairman Sergii Rudyk during the preceded the government hotline briefing. - Provision of land plots will be made in the manner specified by the current legislation of Ukraine.

Sergii Rudyk instructed the heads of territorial bodies of land resources to define the arrays of state or communal property land suitable for the construction and maintenance of residential houses, gardening and individual suburban construction, in order to provide the families of military personnel.

They are talking about distributing some state or communal property land to military from Armed Forces of Ukraine, State Border Guard Service of Ukraine, Ministry for Internal Affairs of Ukraine, Security Service of Ukraine. So no that is not evidence that they are planning to ethnically cleanse eastern Ukraine and give their land to militias.

 

[Casually Red]

and sponsored by them subhumans

ts perfectly clear the them referred to are the invaders mentoned immediately prevously..plainly Donbass locals arent invaders. Hes constantly accusing the Russians of nvadng. So the subhumans are someone else..the ones being sponsored by them.

you seem intent on editing the statement to suit your own position..while still studiously ignoring the obvkous ideological cultural ethnc historical and current political baggage the word carries there

as regards the one sentence thats all thats necessary in order to convey the message. if you are going to attack the story as fake you should at least point to a credble reason why the paper would be engaged kn Black propaganda against its own side.

 

[Combustible]

Except that the one sentence does not say where the land will come from, while the statement from the Ukraine Land Agency says it is state or communal property land. The headline could also be read as saying that the land given out will specifically be from eastern Ukraine, whereas the actual statement makes no mention where the plots of land will be.

 

[DairyQueen]

Can we just have a rational discussion here. As far as I am aware, ukrainian troops are encircled in the east. Yatsenyuk has no power here, the power rests with the president. His comments are irrelevant.

 

[Casually Red]

Can we just have a rational discussion here. As far as I am aware, ukrainian troops are encircled in the east. Yatsenyuk has no power here, the power rests with the president. His comments are irrelevant.

theyre far from irrelevant as they not only underline the attitude of the junta towards the people in the south east but also largely determine how the people in Donbass regard the junta and its intentions.