Ukraine

[Casually Red]

1. I know what "beef" means, thank you, and if I made an "Irish beef" remark against you, I would rightly be piled on by everyone around here for making a racist remark.
2. Do you acknowledge that being of Jewish descent is indeed a race?
3. Why did you bring frogwoman's Jewish background into it in the first place?
4. Can you not at least remotely see how offensive what you said was?

no you wouldnt be rightly piled onto..itd be wrong and i honestly doubt anyone except a massive idiot would.. and if anyone did id tell them to cop onto themselves just as im telling you . if you want to regard Judaism as race thats your prerogative. i regard it as a faith or cultural tradition lie any other religion..always have done... and wont be changing my position on it not least because its somethng ive always regarded as a nazi theory and am uncomfortable with the notion of a religion defining race...also due to sectariansm here and the attempts to seperate into races by use of religous bacground . if i converted to judaism in the morning i dont beleive my racial bacground would change one iota. So no..ive never regarded it as that and would be uncomfortable defining people lie that ..

i brought the background of both her religion and her Moldovan connectons into it as the only possible basis for her apparent hatred of Russians and those on here who support them . i fail to see how its based on ether logic or politics and therefore assume its a grudge or bias based on historical national and cultural animosities tied to that region. if her bacground was Polish id regard it as an historical polish beef .
i accept it could have been put more delicately but refuse to accept its any kind of racial slur . Because it simply wasnt . when i wish to be offensive i tend to do it in a bit more detail and not in an off the cuff manner . And most certainly would not use someones religous or racial bacground as a basis to dengrate them . Not ever no matter what my dispute with them was .

eta

and if she did take it as a racial slur i sincerely apologize while equally insisting it wasnt any such thing

 

[MellySingsDoom]

no you wouldnt be rightly piled onto..itd be wrong and i honestly doubt anyone except a massive idiot would.. and if anyone did id tell them to cop onto themselves just as im telling you . if you want to regard Judaism as race thats your prerogative. i regard it as a faith or cultural tradition lie any other religion..always have done... and wont be changing my position on it not least because its somethng ive always regarded as a nazi theory and am uncomfortable with the notion of a religion defining race...also due to sectariansm here and the attempts to seperate into races by use of religous bacground . if i converted to judaism in the morning i dont beleive my racial bacground would change one iota. So no..ive never regarded it as that and would be uncomfortable defining people lie that ..

i brought the background of both her religion and her Moldovan connectons into it as the only possible basis for her apparent hatred of Russians and those on here who support them . i fail to see how its based on ether logic or politics and therefore assume its a grudge or bias based on historical national and cultural animosities tied to that region. if her bacground was Polish id regard it as an historical polish beef .
i accept it could have been put more delicately but refuse to accept its any kind of racial slur . Because it simply wasnt . when i wish to be offensive i tend to do it in a bit more detail and not in an off the cuff manner . And most certainly would not use someones religous or racial bacground as a basis to dengrate them . Not ever no matter what my dispute with them was .

Whilst (finally!) you have provided some actual background to you remark to frogwoman, we are clearly and very obviously never going to agree on this one at all. Bearing in mind that I'm sure everyone would prefer this thread to get back fully on track, I shall take my leave now and go back to reading this thread, and only contributing as and when I can make a pro-active contribution. I think I've made my own position clear on this, as have you. The end.

 

[DotCommunist]

he didn't say judaism, that was his post hoc backpeddle. in vino veritas eh.

 

[quiquaquo]

1. I know what "beef" means, thank you, and if I made an "Irish beef" remark against you, I would rightly be piled on by everyone around here for making a racist remark.
2. Do you acknowledge that being of Jewish descent is indeed a race?
3. Why did you bring frogwoman's Jewish background into it in the first place?
4. Can you not at least remotely see how offensive what you said was?

Re No 2: Untrue both in fact and concept.

 

[Casually Red]

Are you claiming that this is all outlined in that 36 second clip? How do you know that it is an accurate translation and that it means that the civilian population will be placed in camps? Why is it in no other news source that even looks slightly reliable? It is possible of course that this is their plan, but it would be a bit odd for the government to publically come out with this but for no-one to report it. If they didn't want people to know why would they have said anything at all.

youre kidding right...youre talking about the reliable western media that still clams the people slaughtered n odessa n front of tv cameras actually killed themselves by mistake..and who for months stood among countless nazi and white power banners cheering on pro democracy protestors

why do you assume they dont want people to know ?? Yatsenyuk openly talks about cleanng the land of subhumans on his government portal...hes telling the world in English ...nobody gives a fuck . The Whitehouse EU and NATO have his back and thats that .

heres the whtehouses response to the one solitary reporter from a reliable news agency who seems to have had a problem with it

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/06/227650.htm#UKRAINE

not a solitary fuck given

 

[antimata]

another u75 good read.

 

[Casually Red]

he didn't say judaism, that was his post hoc backpeddle. in vino veritas eh.

Except i was describing the background to her beef not defining her religion meaning jewish was an adjectve and not a noun. Under any circumstances Judaistic beef would be over the top . A sensible person would cop to that and youre not even pissed

or mebbe you are . not sure whether youre drinking through straws or just clutching at them

 

[quiquaquo]

There's sanctions and sanctions... http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/05/02/360995/us-fears-russia-may-desert-astronauts/

"For here
Am I sitting in a tin can
Far above the world
Planet Earth is blue
And there's nothing I can do"

 

[Combustible]

heres the whtehouses response to the one solitary reporter from a reliable news agency who seems to have had a problem with it

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/06/227650.htm#UKRAINE

That question was about racist rhetoric towards Russians. The fact that a reporter (it's not clear where from) asked a question about isn't exactly hard evidence but even if it is accurate it is not evidence that they are planning to put the Russian population in camps and distribute land in eastern Ukraine to various militias. I didn't say it had to be 'reliable western media' just one that is not one of the clearly unreliable sites you continue to uncritically post links to.

In fact the subhuman quote is in mainstream western media but unsurprisingly the fact that he was either calling Russians who live in eastern Ukraine subhumans or that he was declaring that they would be ethnically cleansed, is made up bollocks from you.

"We bow our heads to the heroes who lost their lives for the sake of their country, to prevent the war from coming into the house of each of us," Prime-Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said.

"They lost their lives because they defended men and women, children and the elderly who found themselves in a situation facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by subhumans," he said. "First, we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them and then by cleaning our land from the evil."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/15/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/

Yet nothing anywhere sensible about the planned concentration camps. It would be odd if the Ukrainian government was openly proclaiming it's plan to do this, yet the only people reporting it are apparently websites proclaiming the "People's Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk".

 

[Casually Red]

what do you think cleaning our land means ?

 

[Combustible]

what do you think cleaning our land means ?

Actually this is a good example of you twisting the meaning of what has been said. Earlier you said

so.there we have it...the plan..the Donbass resistance are subhumans sponsored by Russia..and once the fighters are wiped out the land will then be cleaned.

And once the land is cleaned what they intend to do with it is as ive already pointed out ....the cleansed land with its inhabitants suitably filtered and resettled elsewhere will then be doled out to the troops and nazi volunteer units as payment...presumably to resettle themselves

Firstly he was saying that those who sponsored the "Donbass resistance" were subhumans not that they were. You also claim that he was saying that first they will wipe out the fighters and therefore when he says "cleaning our land", he can not be referring to the militias and therefore must be referring to the rest of the population as a whole. But what he said was "we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them and then by cleaning our land from the evil." So he wasn't necessarily referring to all the fighters but those who specifically shot down the military plane. And therefore the 'evil' in the second part doesn't necessarily refer to the population as a whole and the most obvious interpretation is that it refers to the armed militias. And there is absolutely no indication that this was a declaration of intent to ethnically cleanse eastern Ukraine.

 

[butchersapron]

France 24 - Far-right ‘Russian Jihad’ fighters cross into Ukraine

‘Russian imperialist nationalists’

Evgeny Mazepin is a recruiter for the self-styled “Russian Volunteer battalion”.

He works out of an office in the city of Voronezh, 500km south of Moscow and 150km from the Ukrainian border.

“Ideologically we are all Russian imperialist nationalists, descendants of the White Guard,” he explains, in reference to the anti-communist forces that waged a civil war against the Bolsheviks in the years immediately after the 1917 Russian Revolution.

“Every day we receive about 10 applications from candidates who want to join the battalion,” he says. “Our aim is to liberate the land we call Novorossiya – New Russia – and its Russian people from the enemy, the Kiev junta.”

Novorussia was the 18th and 19th century name for the region of Imperial Russia that now comprises Ukraine.

“By contrast, the Donetsk Republic formulates its agenda from below, literally on the run, in response to the public mood and the course of events. Strictly speaking this republic is not even a state—rather, it amounts to a coalition of diverse communities, most of them self-organised. In essence, it is the perfect embodiment of the anarchist concept of the revolutionary order.”

That is a quote from Boris Kagarlitsky , once an iunternationally respected socialist, now the intellectual lefts biggest pimp for the above. So what demands from the public have provoked this response? What cry from the people has brought forth these white scum?

 

[butchersapron]

Another collection of articles from bookforum, not had time to go through them yet:

Greg Simons (Uppsala): Ukraine and the Questions of Boundaries and Nationalities. Timothy Frye (Columbia): What Do Voters in Ukraine Want? A Survey Experiment on Candidate, Language, Ethnicity and Policy Orientation. Svetlana Vladimirovna Panina-Burke and John J. A. Burke (Almaty): Eastern and Southern Ukraine’s Right to Secede and Join the Russian Federation. MiGs and monks in Crimea: Russia flexes cultural and military muscles, revealing dire need for balance of uti possidetis and internationally recognized self-determination. Annexation of Crimea divides an artist colony founded on tolerance. Timothy Garton Ash on Putin’s deadly doctrine: “Protecting” Russians in Ukraine has fatal consequences. Moscow dreamed of transforming southeastern Ukraine into a client state — but the Kremlin's plans are fraying as Kiev pushes back. The fighting in eastern Ukraine intensifies as pro-Russian rebels lose ground, raising fresh questions over the plans of Russia’s Vladimir Putin. Justin Fox on an economic explanation for Putin’s recklessness. Joshua Rovner on what Ukraine means for how we study war: The fight in Ukraine tells us a lot about what counts as "winning" and "losing" a war. Kimberly Marten on why arming Ukraine is a bad idea. A wild and crazy thought to avert a Russo-Ukrainian war: Why not propose UN peacekeepers for eastern Ukraine? How to beat down a bully: There's only one way to stop Putin's ugly new doctrine of irregular intervention — hit back even harder. Is Russia's humanitarian convoy a Trojan horse? Linda Kinstler investigates. Katie Zavadski on how Russia is inching closer to war in Ukraine with convoy “invasion”. Putin's “humanitarian” convoy is simply a pretext for the war the Kremlin's been planning for months. David Frum on how Russia is already invading Ukraine.

 

[pocketscience]

Just did a sample probe on one of the authors. Took the last one:

David Frum on how Russia is already invading Ukraine.

So David Frum believes Russia is already invading Ukraine eh? Who is this learned fellow of irrefutable opinion?

David's Wiki Page enlightens us to:

David J. Frum is a Canadian-American political commentator. A speechwriter for President George W. Bush ...

...Shortly after leaving the White House, Frum took up a position as a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute, a neo-conservative think tank. His position lasted from 2003 until March 25, 2010, when his paid position was terminated and he declined to accept the offer of a non-paying position.[16][17] During the early days of his stint there, Frum coauthored An End to Evil with Richard Perle,

Now where's that itchy chin smiley?

 

[rekil]

That is a quote from Boris Kagarlitsky , once an iunternationally respected socialist, now the intellectual lefts biggest pimp for the above. So what demands from the public have provoked this response? What cry from the people has brought forth these white scum?

Did you post this? "Ukraine: Russian White Guards in the Donbass" - It's in my recent bookmarks but I don't remember where I came across it.

On April 22, Boris Kagarlitsky affirmed (here, Russian original here) that “the successful uprising of hundreds of thousands (and perhaps millions) of people in eastern Ukraine is not to be explained on the basis of Russian interference”. An uprising of hundreds of thousands, even millions? Even the propaganda of the Russian regime aimed at people abroad, with the channel Russia Today in the forefront, is a thousand times more measured.

On the international left, almost nobody knows Russian, and even less Ukrainian; so when the left wants to know what is happening in Ukraine, it finds itself in a catastrophic situation. So as not to depend on the Western media, it is condemned to have recourse to the English-language propaganda of the Putin regime and to that of the so-called “anti-imperialist networks” which are pro-Russian (often “red-brown” or downright brown) as well as what is translated into English by the journal Links – a site, to be precise, which has provided publicity for Kagarlitsky’s writings concerning this great mass uprising that does not exist.

 

[butchersapron]

A sample of one - fantastic.

Did you post this? "Ukraine: Russian White Guards in the Donbass" - It's in my recent bookmarks but I don't remember where I came across it.

Think i did yes.

 

[radamenese]

Press conference of 'Novorussian' (rebel) leadership. Some might find interesting to see what they have to say for themselves in context of this thread.

 

[Witch Doctor]

You know, something tells me that EU better quit supporting the new elect president of Ukraine because that leads us to nothing. Time to switch to some other Ukrainian politician, for instance Timoshenko is now much more like it. Sure enough Petro Poroshenko is widely considered in Europe to be a democratic symbol of Eurointegration of Ukraine. But according last events in Kiev with Maidan dismantle and those numerous protests against nationhood mobilization and decreasing of level of living Poroshenko is most unpopular politician in Ukraine now. I've got a lot of friends in Ukraine. There is couple of journalists among them. All of them say that no Ukrainian President ever had such bad polls. And no wonder. He came to power when Ukraine has been needed most radical reforms. But at once he started looking out for his financial interests and appointed his clansmen on all profitable posts and unleashed that bloody oligarch war in the East of Ukraine instead of improving Ukrainian economics. They say he still sells his chocos all over Russia while Europeans suffer from those forced sanctions. Imao such man must not being associated with Eurointegration. Ukrainians would establish anti-EuroMaidan if he stays at power. Don't wanna be back at the bottom of the ladder.

 

[butchersapron]

Press conference of 'Novorussian' (rebel) leadership. Some might find interesting to see what they have to say for themselves in context of this thread.

Ta.

 

[quiquaquo]

Press conference of 'Novorussian' (rebel) leadership. Some might find interesting to see what they have to say for themselves in context of this thread.

Thanks, interesting video.

 

[DairyQueen]

You know, something tells me that EU better quit supporting the new elect president of Ukraine because that leads us to nothing. Time to switch to some other Ukrainian politician, for instance Timoshenko is now much more like it. Sure enough Petro Poroshenko is widely considered in Europe to be a democratic symbol of Eurointegration of Ukraine. But according last events in Kiev with Maidan dismantle and those numerous protests against nationhood mobilization and decreasing of level of living Poroshenko is most unpopular politician in Ukraine now. I've got a lot of friends in Ukraine. There is couple of journalists among them. All of them say that no Ukrainian President ever had such bad polls. And no wonder. He came to power when Ukraine has been needed most radical reforms. But at once he started looking out for his financial interests and appointed his clansmen on all profitable posts and unleashed that bloody oligarch war in the East of Ukraine instead of improving Ukrainian economics. They say he still sells his chocos all over Russia while Europeans suffer from those forced sanctions. Imao such man must not being associated with Eurointegration. Ukrainians would establish anti-EuroMaidan if he stays at power. Don't wanna be back at the bottom of the ladder.

Tymoshenko is a typical Ukrainian politician and a divisive figure even in the west. However, she did at least try and get Russian support as Prime Minister. I think she responded to her imprisonment badly. She tried to go for the Ukrainian nationalist vote. That was very short-term. Maybe she had to do it, but her core vote would probably have stuck with her if she didn't.

Also, I highly doubt Poroshenko is less popular than Yushenko in his final days as president, if he is then that would be incredible. He ended up with 3% of the vote in the previous presidential election. I haven't seen any polling for Poroshenko, but I suspect the next candidate from the west would need to try get an immediate ceasefire and common ground with the rebels. Perhaps even negotiating with Russia about a long-term solution to Crimea that is mutually beneficial. Those type of concrete steps are unlikely to be taken, but the easiest way out of the mess would be to repudiate the Ukrainian nationalist bloc and make big concessions to the east in some form. I guess that has to be balanced against the risk of those areas going independent.

I think this whole conflict has been a step back for Ukraine, and I can't see Donetsk-Luhansk staying in Ukraine in their current form. I think this was the American's fault. EU integration might not even happen for twenty or thirty years, some kind of integration would have happened before the end of the decade if the conflict never took place.

 

[quiquaquo]

So wrong I really don't know where too start

 

[DairyQueen]

Why not with some sound bites and jokes?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Not sure if this article from the Telegraph has been posted. It's a few weeks old now but I've only just stumbled across it. "Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists". Interesting part in it about foreign fighters from Ireland, Italy, Greece and Sweden, one of whom plans to travel to Syria and fight for Assad in the future.

 

[laptop]

Ukraine crisis: T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial

 

[pocketscience]

Poroshenko announced that Ukraine will spend some $3 billion on re-equipping the army in 2015-2017

I wonder where he'll be buying the kit from and more importantly where the money's coming from?

 

[DotCommunist]

the Ukranian pm has said theres a couple of thousand russian troops in the east of the country now, russia denies it.

 

[DairyQueen]

the Ukranian pm has said theres a couple of thousand russian troops in the east of the country now, russia denies it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28965597

 

[gimesumtruf]

Lie upon lie from Kiev and the West, it's getting so crass. So what if Russians are fighting there, it's to be expected.

 

[DairyQueen]

I always love these satellite images; "ah yes, 9A52-4s if I'm not mistaken. Of course, Ukraine has only purchase 67 of these in late 2012 all of which are deployed on the northern frontier, so these are of course Russian" I never think when I look at these photos.