Ukraine

[TomUS]

Russia itself is next on the agenda once theyve mopped up in Ukraine.

So, this is part of a grand plan by Brzezinski & Obama to break Russia into pieces?
And I'm sure the Trilateral Commission & the Bilderbergers are in on it as well.

 

[bluescreen]

I don't think RAPA has been mentioned here yet. Steven Starr explains how Republican Senator Bob Corker’s “Russian Aggression Prevention Act” by consequence or design is driving Russia toward nuclear war:

The Russian Aggression Prevention Act demands that Russia “withdraw from the eastern border of Ukraine,” which is by definition, the Russian border. In other words, RAPA provocatively demands that Russia remove its own military forces away from its own borders, while Ukrainian military forces are meanwhile massed on the other side, attacking predominantly Russian cities.

RAPA also demands that “Russian forces must have withdrawn from Crimea within seven days of the enactment of the Act.” Not likely to happen, given that

(1) Crimea was part of the Russian empire from 1783 until 1954,

(2) withdrawal from Crimea would require Russia to abandon its only warm water port at Sevastopol, where Russian forces have been based, by internationally recognized treaty, since 1997, and

(3) more than three-quarters of all Crimeans voted “yes” to reunify with Russia, a vote which Russia accepted by its subsequent annexation of Crimea.

Thus, in the eyes of Russia, the requirement to “withdraw from Crimea” amounts to a US demand that Russia surrender Russian territory. Putin has just taken the entire Russian Duma (the Russian House of Representatives) to Crimea, to address them there and strongly make the point that there will be no withdrawal from Crimea.

RAPA, however, stipulates that the US does not recognize the Russian annexation of Crimea, and creates sanctions and legal penalties for anyone who does. RAPA therefore provides both military and political support for Ukrainian President Poroshenko’s stated goat that Ukraine will retake Crimea.

This goal was recently echoed by the Ukrainian defense minister, who was applauded by the Ukrainian Parliament when he told them that the Ukrainian army will “have a victory parade in Sevastopol“. These statements are taken seriously in Moscow, where they are viewed as a promise to attack Russia. Thus, Putin’s advisers are telling him he must fight today in Eastern Ukraine, or tomorrow in Crimea.

Any Russian military intervention in Eastern Ukraine would certainly be described in the West as Russian aggression in pursuit of empire, which would trigger deafening demands that US/NATO forces act to support Ukraine. Should NATO intervene, subsequent Russian military action against any NATO member would trigger the alliance’s Chapter 5 mutual defense clause, committing it to war with Russia.

Much more at the link. http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...teven-starr-senator-corkers-path-nuclear-war/

It does sound particularly insane. It's already been passed by Congress. Any idea what likelihood it has of being passed by the Committee on Foreign Affairs?

 

[DairyQueen]

I haven't claimed that you've said such a thing, although nice try at dissembling.

Rather patronising of you, but par for the course, as you appear to believe that you have a superior understanding of history and current affairs to anyone else.

What a load of shite. I suppose its that 'nuance' you're talking about. You appear to be a pretty aggressive Ukrainian nationalist.

 

[quiquaquo]

Donetsk People's Republic soldiers parade captured enemy soldiers then clean the street, bizarre

Bizarre? Perfectly normal to wash the stench of fascism from the streets of liberated territory.

 

[Diamond]

Been away for a month or so.

 

[Diamond]

As far as I understand the Eastern Ukrainian anti-fascists intercepted a civilian plane, killing everyone on board.

 

[Diamond]

Is that incorrect?

 

[DairyQueen]

Dunno, more concerned about whether we can crack jokes about them losing their homes.

 

[Nylock]

<snip>
It does sound particularly insane. It's already been passed by Congress. Any idea what likelihood it has of being passed by the Committee on Foreign Affairs?

Hopefully, zero.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What a load of shite. I suppose its that 'nuance' you're talking about. You appear to be a pretty aggressive Ukrainian nationalist.

Appearances are deceptive, little propagand.

 

[treelover]

This is NATO expansionism every way you look at it. They are the ones surrounding Russia with bases and missiles on all its borders and for Russia not to try and stymie this even slightly is national suicide. Resisting it is decried as expansionism by the fucing expansionists . Commonsense dictates peace in Europe depends upon a neutral buffer zone..a role Finland Sweden and modern Ukraine have fulflled. That shouldnt be tinkered with . ts madness to try and remove that buffer. And a madness born of aggression to even contemplate it.

Don't usually agree with you, but on this I think you are absolutely right, its very worrying how Nato is now expanding again.

 

[co-op]

It does sound particularly insane. It's already been passed by Congress. Any idea what likelihood it has of being passed by the Committee on Foreign Affairs?

It doesn't need to be passed by any "Committee on Foreign Affairs". It can be vetoed by the President though.

 

[co-op]

Just looked here https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277/text - and it hasn't "passed" anything yet, let alone both Houses of Congress.

 

[bluescreen]

Just looked here https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277/text - and it hasn't "passed" anything yet, let alone both Houses of Congress.

Well, that's a relief. I read somewhere that it had been rushed through in two days but must have misread, or perhaps it was misinformation. Always a good idea to double check. Thanks.

 

[quiquaquo]

83 out of 4,700 came back, 95% killed, wounded or captured.

 

[co-op]

Well, that's a relief. I read somewhere that it had been rushed through in two days but must have misread, or perhaps it was misinformation. Always a good idea to double check. Thanks.

You're welcome. It may be that it was given some fast-track by the committees that govern which Bills are given active consideration (which is probably justified by its topicality). But it's got a fair way to go before it's law, I guess there are quite a few weird Bills that get to this stage.

 

[co-op]

83 out of 4,700 came back, 95% killed, wounded or captured.

Do you know what date this is from? I couldn't see one.

 

[quiquaquo]

Do you know what date this is from? I couldn't see one.

Published on 20 Aug 2014


83 Fighters of the 30th Mechanised Brigade return to Nowgorod-Wolynski to confront their Military Leaders with the Question
why they were sent «into certain death» – ENG SUBS

(you need to click on "YouTube" at the bottom of the embedded video and it will take you to the original)

 

[DairyQueen]

Appearances are deceptive, little propagand.

Outwardly appearances are many times deceptive. In this case they're not.

 

[elbows]

Outwardly appearances are many times deceptive. In this case they're not.

Growing tired of the way this thread is going, and I would like you to consider your stance since you posted this on Tuesday:

I don't mind Casually Red, he does post up some good links. Not sure where the whole frogwoman stuff comes from, but I do have serious concerns about the types of people that we seem to be supporting in Ukraine and the very passive way the British public are swallowing stories from there. "Oh, we're fighting the Russians now? What an opportunity to unfurl the Union Jack! More tea Trevor? Tralalalala"

Specifically I would like you to stop imagining that the characterisation of the 'British Public' you made there is applicable to many people in this thread. It isn't, and so you'll get nowhere with the tedious antidote to the supposed hysteria about Russia, as if we've all been buying the BBC narrative. Such a medicine is entirely unnecessary on a thread like this that covered the horrors of all sides pretty bloody well during every stage of the political turmoil and subsequent fighting. And you should know that, so I don't quite understand why the need now to hype the Ukrainian regime horrors and downplay the historical hours of the Soviet union. Certainly if you want to pick a side in the same clown way that Casually Red does, then your time here will not be terribly productive from now on, and you'll deserve all the abuse you get.

 

[pocketscience]

Growing tired of the way this thread is going, and I would like you to consider your stance since you posted this on Tuesday:



Specifically I would like you to stop imagining that the characterisation of the 'British Public' you made there is applicable to many people in this thread. It isn't, and so you'll get nowhere with the tedious antidote to the supposed hysteria about Russia, as if we've all been buying the BBC narrative. Such a medicine is entirely unnecessary on a thread like this that covered the horrors of all sides pretty bloody well during every stage of the political turmoil and subsequent fighting.

It's a bit late for the sanctimonious crocodile tears now I'm afraid.
The tone was set 50 odd pages ago when the Kerry Kiev Krew made 50+ posts guffawing at Sunny Jim because he had the audacity to label the new government as fascists.
Then the "celebrations" smugfest aimed at me.
The informative poster Easter Oddessy who in 135 posts managed to collect 121 likes until he made a reference to chavs and got hounded out by the usual suspects because of it.
The list goes on.
Funny you should now join in the harassment of DairyQueen that's been ongoing for the last couple of pages but didn't reprimand any of the posters with the barbed anti Russian views earlier.

And you should know that, so I don't quite understand why the need now to hype the Ukrainian regime horrors and downplay the historical hours of the Soviet union. Certainly if you want to pick a side in the same clown way that Casually Red does, then your time here will not be terribly productive from now on, and you'll deserve all the abuse you get.

errr... Merkel met with Poroshenko on Saturday in Kiev and continues to pledge Germany's support to his government who are carrying out these "horrors".
Do you think there's a relevance to the "historical hours" of Germany in all this? Do you think we're looking at the 4th Reich Imperial expansion?
Of course not. So why Russia then?

 

[DairyQueen]

Specifically I would like you to stop imagining that the characterisation of the 'British Public' you made there is applicable to many people in this thread.

I would say that characterisation is applicable to many people on this thread, not all, but certainly many. We're talking about Ukrainian domestic policy here, and it really pisses me off that people can post up anti-Russian propaganda and not get called on it. Ukraine is not fighting Russia, even if framing the conflict in this way would make it easier to create our own narratives.

 

[elbows]

I'll tell you why now, pocket science. Because accusations that someone is a 'aggressive Ukrainian nationalist' based on what was actually said on the thread are stupid.

The tone of this thread was not set 50 pages ago. Rather its shifted all over the place over time, and I expect it will continue to do so.

Certainly there was an inevitable shift once Russia stretched the anti-fascist rhetoric too far, and once they annexed Crimea.

Yes there will be crude, inappropriate anti-Russian sentiments and propaganda expressed at times, and these should be challenged. Personally I would prefer it if that were done without resort to defining peoples stances in terms so crude that they cannot be taken seriously.

 

[elbows]

We're talking about Ukrainian domestic policy here

No, we are not dealing with something as straightforward as that, and as I'm sure you are aware thats part of the problem with talking about it now. More than one side is making use of external factors in order to distract from domestic politics and define things in terms of regional and international struggles. The solution to this attempt to keep the narrative narrow in order to serve specific interests, is not to descend to the same level of oversimplification and labelling. You don't actually do a service to the cause you are trying to highlight by playing the same games as the crude propagandists on all sides.

 

[seventh bullet]

I would say that characterisation is applicable to many people on this thread, not all, but certainly many. We're talking about Ukrainian domestic policy here, and it really pisses me off that people can post up anti-Russian propaganda and not get called on it. Ukraine is not fighting Russia, even if framing the conflict in this way would make it easier to create our own narratives.

Name them.

 

[elbows]

errr... Merkel met with Poroshenko on Saturday in Kiev and continues to pledge Germany's support to his government who are carrying out these "horrors".
Do you think there's a relevance to the "historical hours" of Germany in all this? Do you think we're looking at the 4th Reich Imperial expansion?
Of course not. So why Russia then?

I didn't choose to bring up the imperialist etc histories of various powers who are involved, so there is no point directing that at me.

Generally I have a problem with narratives that focus almost exclusively on the involved external powers because things quickly descend to well established and tedious lines, and the actual people who live in the territories being fought over end up as either an afterthought or their death stats are used as crude propaganda.

It also pisses me off because we usually lack information on those fronts other than the obvious geo-political analysis that follows very familiar patterns going back decades. For example in the first days after the election in Ukraine, there were a number of signs of various sides taking a step back and seeing what areas they could agree on. For example quite a lot of money owed by Ukraine to Russia for gas was paid, and NATO publicly mentioned Russian troops withdrawing from the border. As a result at the time I was almost getting ready to make a post about those who had 'backed one of the powers' in this conflict having to save face in some crap way now that deals were done privately between important people, making the propaganda value of poor pawns suddenly double-plus irrelevant. But it never happened, conflict and dodgy rhetoric continued. And we have, as far as I'm aware, no information about what exactly happened or whether any future deals may be close to fruition. We can see powers playing games, but assumptions can only carry us so far, we don't know the exact calculations of either side. For example what end game various sides seriously think they can reach at some point.

 

[elbows]

As for anti-Russian propaganda, the most laughable example I saw in recent weeks was in regards the aid convoy. Obviously that generated reams of propaganda from all sides, but my favourite was when some site was going completely nuts that the convoy was a direct Russian military invasion, and claimed to have proof that it was army vehicles being painted white. Well they pushed that one much too far when someone posted a picture of a Russian tank painted white, as if the act of painting it white meant it could at any moment slip unnoticed into the convoy of white trucks, and that Russia would do that and then simply continue its stance of claiming it was all about humanitarian aid. I'm often the first one to point out the crude nature of Russian propaganda, but even they might have a bit of trouble with that sort of 'whitewash'.

 

[elbows]

Can anyone confirm what happened in regards to Right Sectors 48-hour ultimatum?

Im low on time at the moment so cannot confirm, but I did stumble upon these interesting words from former Polish PM Leszek Miller. Unfortunately I can only find them in English via RIA Novosti.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140825/192...bout-Right-Sectors-Influence-in-Ukraine-.html

"There is one thing we shamefully “forget” about here in Europe. And it’s the internal situation in Ukraine," the Polish politician said.

"At the same time the leader of the most radical, nationalist, openly fascist Right Sector movement, Dmytro Yarosh demands the authorities release all of his imprisoned men within 48 hours and return their confiscated weapons, threatening to withdraw Right Sector battalions from the east of Ukraine and march on Kiev," Miller said.

"One of these battalions has recruited right-wing nationalists from several European countries that deem the European Union the same enemy as Russia," Miller said.

"Dmytro Yarosh did not have to wait for 48 hours, the Ukrainian government immediately solved the issue. Yarosh happily announced that "our brothers have been freed." All of this means that it is not Right Sector that is afraid of the Ukrainian authorities, but the Kiev government that fears the Right Sector. It is depressing when the authorities yield in such situations," Miller said.

"At the same time, the officials in Poland pretend they do not see this problem. Their main goal is to do harm to Russia by whatever means necessary," Miller said.

 

[free spirit]

83 out of 4,700 came back, 95% killed, wounded or captured.

sounds like total chaos, and they're massive losses if that is the final figure.

 

[DairyQueen]

Name them.

Off the top of my head, without looking at previous posts; coley, Fuchs66