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Ukraine

elbows said:
No, we are not dealing with something as straightforward as that, and as I'm sure you are aware thats part of the problem with talking about it now. More than one side is making use of external factors in order to distract from domestic politics and define things in terms of regional and international struggles. The solution to this attempt to keep the narrative narrow in order to serve specific interests, is not to descend to the same level of oversimplification and labelling. You don't actually do a service to the cause you are trying to highlight by playing the same games as the crude propagandists on all sides.
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How am I keeping the narrative narrow? This is a Ukrainian problem. If there is an external issue, it is precisely that - an external issue Ukraine has to respond to. I think the Ukrainian government have responded to those external challenges badly. So badly in fact, there is now a catastrophe in Ukraine. The narrative that this is Ukraine against Russia is just ignorant or biased. It certainly ignores or dismisses the last twenty or so years of Ukrainian politics. Ukraine has had a decade to sort these issues out and come to find some kind of stability.

I can accept the notion that Ukraine effectively has no control over the situation, in which case what you are really suggesting is a conflict between Western (American) interests against Russian interests. Invoking the 'poor' little Ukrainians (and excluding the rebels) is simply an American propaganda trick.
 
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I can accept the notion that Ukraine effectively has no control over the situation, in which case what you are really suggesting is a conflict between Western (American) interests against Russian interests. Invoking the 'poor' little Ukrainians (and excluding the rebels) is simply an American propaganda trick

Mebbes under Bush, but the present lot is terrified of getting its fingers involved, outside of making annoyed noises, agreed the EU should keep it useless sneck out,but you can't argue that Russia is keeping this particular pot boiling, Putin got the Crimea without any trouble and thought he would do the same in Eastern Ukraine,when it turned out he might have bought off more than he could chew he effectively dumped them in it, just giving them enough support and encouragement to keep the pro Russians believing Moscow would come marching in.
Overall he has the Ukraine tearing itself to bits, game set and match to Russia.
 
DairyQueen said:
How am I keeping the narrative narrow? This is a Ukrainian problem. If there is an external issue, it is precisely that - an external issue Ukraine has to respond to. I think the Ukrainian government have responded to those external challenges badly. So badly in fact, there is now a catastrophe in Ukraine. The narrative that this is Ukraine against Russia is just ignorant or biased. It certainly ignores or dismisses the last twenty or so years of Ukrainian politics. Ukraine has had a decade to sort these issues out and come to find some kind of stability.

I can accept the notion that Ukraine effectively has no control over the situation, in which case what you are really suggesting is a conflict between Western (American) interests against Russian interests. Invoking the 'poor' little Ukrainians (and excluding the rebels) is simply an American propaganda trick.
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DQ, do you have an inside line? There is so much antagonism in this thread, and I don't know whether it's informed or simply ideological. I don't have an angle on this except that I think it's inescapable that however much it ought to be simply a Ukrainian problem, it just isn't. As a buffer state between Russia and NATO it's going to suffer everyone's fingers meddling and it's impossible for us bystanders to know the truth, or truths. There is just way too much at stake. This thread is too long for me to catch up with every post so can you help by referring us to sources of information you rely on? I'm familiar with, eg, reading RT against BBC and marvelling at the dissonance. Big problem: I don't speak Russian.

And yeah, I know it's not your job to educate me. But it would help.
 
bluescreen said:
DQ, do you have an inside line? There is so much antagonism in this thread, and I don't know whether it's informed or simply ideological. I don't have an angle on this except that I think it's inescapable that however much it ought to be simply a Ukrainian problem, it just isn't. As a buffer state between Russia and NATO it's going to suffer everyone's fingers meddling and it's impossible for us bystanders to know the truth, or truths. There is just way too much at stake. This thread is too long for me to catch up with every post so can you help by referring us to sources of information you rely on? I'm familiar with, eg, reading RT against BBC and marvelling at the dissonance. Big problem: I don't speak Russian.

And yeah, I know it's not your job to educate me. But it would help.
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I have just followed Ukrainian politics for ten or so years. Quite closely at times, particularly around elections but other times too. They used to have a lot of good english language coverage, from all sides (kyiv Post was free but very pro-western, this American guy was good - he was pro-eastern - a nice perspective on elections). Just read it recently, and he is posting stuff up about the plane crash, not really read through that. Can't remember the other places I got information.

The problem has been that there has always been two broad factions, the eastern one tended to be more united. The western factions (butchers posted a superb article about Yushenko's dealings with the far-right, well worth a read if you can find it) were much more fragmented but never respected the democratic legitimacy of the eastern one. To me, that has always been the problem. It extended beyond oligarchs and corruption.

I actually felt Ukrainian politics was exciting, they had interesting public debates, a nice culture. However, I always distrusted the western Ukrainian factions more so than the eastern ones. I never thought that they might actually attack the east like this and that a peaceful partition or slow indoctrination would be the worst that would come. Maybe with Crimea gone and Donetsk-Luhansk destroyed (cleansed) they can build the Ukrainian nation they always wanted. It will be far less interesting than the one I was reading about.
 
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DairyQueen said:
However, I always distrusted the western Ukrainian factions more so than the eastern ones. I never thought that they might actually attack the east like this and that a peaceful partition or slow indoctrination would be the worst that would come. Maybe with Crimea gone and Donetsk-Luhansk destroyed (cleansed) they can build the Ukrainian nation they always wanted. It will be far less interesting than the one I was reading about.
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accordng to their Defense Minister Mykhailo Koval.the plan is to round up the citizens of Donbass and send them to special filtration camps...to weed out the guilty from the innocent...and then resettle them all elsewhere. He doesnt specify what the fate of the guilty will be though



It will take a complete filtering of the people. It requires special filtration activities. It’s said that among the people, including women, some were not associated with separatism, with those who committed crimes in Ukraine related to terrorist activities. While this may be, we have a lot of information. The base is very powerful. And the corresponding structure, which is designed for this, they will carry out. In addition, there is a problem associated with the fact that people will settle in different regions,

http://borotba.org/concentration_camps_for_donbass._by_victor_shapinov.html

alongsde that fascist bollocks theres this statement from his boss Yatsenyuk who unabashedly proclaimed on the government and US embassy website

BqLOK6oCYAAAXBC.jpg:medium


so.there we have it...the plan..the Donbass resistance are subhumans sponsored by Russia..and once the fighters are wiped out the land will then be cleaned.

And once the land is cleaned what they intend to do with it is as ive already pointed out ....the cleansed land with its inhabitants suitably filtered and resettled elsewhere will then be doled out to the troops and nazi volunteer units as payment...presumably to resettle themselves

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/uk...-to-soldiers-in-the-east-for-free-352100.html

and all this wiping cleaning and filtering will be done in the main by govt sponsored paramilitary outfits lie these who are at the forefront of the campaign against Donbass..

ukraine-nazi-parade-1.jpg


that seems to be how they intend sorting the unruly east out once and for all. in a nutshell.
 
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elbows said:
As for anti-Russian propaganda, the most laughable example I saw in recent weeks was in regards the aid convoy. Obviously that generated reams of propaganda from all sides, but my favourite was when some site was going completely nuts that the convoy was a direct Russian military invasion, and claimed to have proof that it was army vehicles being painted white. Well they pushed that one much too far when someone posted a picture of a Russian tank painted white, as if the act of painting it white meant it could at any moment slip unnoticed into the convoy of white trucks, and that Russia would do that and then simply continue its stance of claiming it was all about humanitarian aid. I'm often the first one to point out the crude nature of Russian propaganda, but even they might have a bit of trouble with that sort of 'whitewash'.
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except thats largely the EU NATO and US line on it...they actually called it an invasion . it could just as easy have been the white house website
 
pocketscience said:
It's a bit late for the sanctimonious crocodile tears now I'm afraid.
The tone was set 50 odd pages ago when the Kerry Kiev Krew made 50+ posts guffawing at Sunny Jim because he had the audacity to label the new government as fascists.
Then the "celebrations" smugfest aimed at me.
The informative poster Easter Oddessy who in 135 posts managed to collect 121 likes until he made a reference to chavs and got hounded out by the usual suspects because of it.
The list goes on.
Funny you should now join in the harassment of DairyQueen that's been ongoing for the last couple of pages but didn't reprimand any of the posters with the barbed anti Russian views earlier.



errr... Merkel met with Poroshenko on Saturday in Kiev and continues to pledge Germany's support to his government who are carrying out these "horrors".
Do you think there's a relevance to the "historical hours" of Germany in all this? Do you think we're looking at the 4th Reich Imperial expansion?
Of course not. So why Russia then?
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this week im a racist jew hater after querying whether the petty anti Russian hatred was down to some deep rooted sectaran and ethnic anmosities from that region. its deep rooted whatever the origin .

btw the Urbanmaidan dont just hound dissenting posters in public they also do snidey pm ban campaigns as well. Heard theres another one going on at the minute

glory to the fucking heroes :rolleyes:
 
J Ed said:


Donetsk People's Republic soldiers parade captured enemy soldiers then clean the street, bizarre
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its historical significance is in direct reference to the fate of the previous fascist army that tried cleansing and resettling the local subhumans in persuit of lebensraum in the east. The Soviets paraded the defeated nazi army through the streets of moscow and then sent the street sweepers up the road behind them ceremonially...to make a point they were filth.basically

 
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pocketscience said:
It's a bit late for the sanctimonious crocodile tears now I'm afraid.
The tone was set 50 odd pages ago when the Kerry Kiev Krew made 50+ posts guffawing at Sunny Jim because he had the audacity to label the new government as fascists.
Then the "celebrations" smugfest aimed at me.
The informative poster Easter Oddessy who in 135 posts managed to collect 121 likes until he made a reference to chavs and got hounded out by the usual suspects because of it.
The list goes on.
Funny you should now join in the harassment of DairyQueen that's been ongoing for the last couple of pages but didn't reprimand any of the posters with the barbed anti Russian views earlier.
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heres a cracking article putting the boot into UKraines anarchist and varous liberal left sects by Svetlana Tsiberganova ..she could be just as well talking about out own Urbanmaidan rogues gallery . Funny enough remember a few on ths thread wwere even highlightng anarchist participation in the maidan freaKshow lie it was something to be proud of..postng local anarchst blogs and allsorts.:facepalm:

http://borotba.org/the_collapse_of_the_liberal_left._by_svetlana_tsiberganova.html

this is her in the pinK blouse trying desperately to save her boyfrend from Kidnap and probably murder by a fascist goonsquad



not sure what her opinion on decadent art is though..cant be too careful
 
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Casually Red said:
you seem to have either forgotten or misunderstood my response to you was to go and fuck yourself
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That's not an answer to either mine or frogwoman's questions, mister paranoid racist. I've misunderstood nothing, thank you. Look, you can either start explaining why you (yes you) came out with that disgraceful racist slur against her, or I will continue to bring this up with you every single time you post here, regardless of how many "go and fuck yourself" responses you throw at me.

Do have a nice day, now :)
 
Casually Red said:
And once the land is cleaned what they intend to do with it is as ive already pointed out ....the cleansed land with its inhabitants suitably filtered and resettled elsewhere will then be doled out to the troops and nazi volunteer units as payment...presumably to resettle themselves

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/uk...-to-soldiers-in-the-east-for-free-352100.html
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Do you have another source for this or even access to the full article? Or do you assume it is true based on a single paragraph with no actual evidence in it?
 
Combustible said:
Do you have another source for this or even access to the full article? Or do you assume it is true based on a single paragraph with no actual evidence in it?
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What evidence do you have that hundreds of thousands of people are fleeing to Russia as a result of Ukrainian aggression? Whether the Ukrainian government is giving out parcels of land there to soldiers is a total red herring, I would not be surprised but we won't find that out now. We would have to look at the demographics of the area over the next few years.
 
If it is a red herring why has he twice posted the link? His claim is that the Ukrainian government is giving the far right militia lebensraum in eastern Ukraine and it reasonable to find out if it is true or whether he has just posted it as fact based on the snippet of text which you don't have to pay for.
 
France 24 - Far-right ‘Russian Jihad’ fighters cross into Ukraine

‘Russian imperialist nationalists’

Evgeny Mazepin is a recruiter for the self-styled “Russian Volunteer battalion”.

He works out of an office in the city of Voronezh, 500km south of Moscow and 150km from the Ukrainian border.

“Ideologically we are all Russian imperialist nationalists, descendants of the White Guard,” he explains, in reference to the anti-communist forces that waged a civil war against the Bolsheviks in the years immediately after the 1917 Russian Revolution.

“Every day we receive about 10 applications from candidates who want to join the battalion,” he says. “Our aim is to liberate the land we call Novorossiya – New Russia – and its Russian people from the enemy, the Kiev junta.”

Novorussia was the 18th and 19th century name for the region of Imperial Russia that now comprises Ukraine.
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FRANCE 24 talks to a group of the battalion’s volunteers heading for the border and into Ukraine. Among them is a Russian calling himself Norman.
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That right SpineyNorman m8? You off to bash the fash? Take CR with you pls?
 
MellySingsDoom said:
That's not an answer to either mine or frogwoman's questions, mister paranoid racist. I've misunderstood nothing, thank you. Look, you can either start explaining why you (yes you) came out with that disgraceful racist slur against her, or I will continue to bring this up with you every single time you post here, regardless of how many "go and fuck yourself" responses you throw at me.

Do have a nice day, now :)
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I didnt come out wth any racist slur against anyone. ive ased whether her persistent demonisation of the people resstng n the east and rdculng of posters here who express sympathy with them is due to a sectarian animosity..or ethnic anmosty pertaining to various tensions in that region. Because its not based on any logical or political stance. VP happily admits to being based due to an historical grudge and doesnt feel the need to InsIst hs best friends are Russans. AskIng or surmising If thats the reason is not remotely racist . i wasnt even aware Judaism was a race.
ive frequently been accused here of only being opposed to the NATO backed coups in Syria Libya and now Ukraine due to my own ethnicity. i havent once regarded that as racist..simply because it isnt and only an absolute twat would try and play such a card because they dont like someone elses vewpont and try and have them slenced by means of the dirty tackle from behind . its a cunts trIck .not that It stops yourself . I notIce though your howls of racism and demands for explanations were absent on each and every one of those occasIons so Im assuming your obvIously talking out of your hole now.

so you can of course go and fuck yourself. Have whatever day you feel like havng..all the same to me. And if you want to start following me around threads pestering me i can just press the go fuck yourself button rather than continue to bandy words wth a charlatan intent on deliberate misrepresentation. Most likely for the ends of yet another secret lets get CR banned PM campagn . Just like the prevous one .
Best of British with it .Old bean . Now toodle pip .
 
coley said:
http://euobserver.com/foreign/125331
Sell out on its way?
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"And if Ukraine says we are going to the Eurasian Union now, the European Union would never make a big conflict out of it, but would insist on a voluntary decision," Merkel added.

"I want to find a way, as many others do, which does not damage Russia. We [Germany] want to have good trade relations with Russia as well. We want reasonable relations with Russia. We are depending on one another and there are so many other conflicts in the world where we should work together, so I hope we can make progress”.
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Iraq and Syria?
Some EU diplomats see Merkel’s ARD remarks on the Eurasian Union as a rhetorical statement meant to underline that Ukraine’s foreign policy is its sovereign choice.

But others fear Berlin is making a deal with Moscow over the heads of Brussels and Kiev.
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And Washington? I almost feel sorry for Merkel. Germany is export driven and the sanctions on and by Russia will start to bite.

The European central bank has given out €100 billions of loans to banks through long-term refinancing yet France, Germany and Italy are sliding back into recession and deflation.
 
Casually Red said:
I didnt come out wth any racist slur against anyone. ive ased whether her persistent demonisation of the people resstng n the east and rdculng of posters here who express sympathy with them is due to a sectarian animosity..or ethnic anmosty pertaining to various tensions in that region. Because its not based on any logical or political stance. VP happily admits to being based due to an historical grudge and doesnt feel the need to InsIst hs best friends are Russans. AskIng or surmising If thats the reason is not remotely racist . i wasnt even aware Judaism was a race.
ive frequently been accused here of only being opposed to the NATO backed coups in Syria Libya and now Ukraine due to my own ethnicity. i havent once regarded that as racist..simply because it isnt and only an absolute twat would try and play such a card because they dont like someone elses vewpont and try and have them slenced by means of the dirty tackle from behind . its a cunts trIck .not that It stops yourself . I notIce though your howls of racism and demands for explanations were absent on each and every one of those occasIons so Im assuming your obvIously talking out of your hole now.

so you can of course go and fuck yourself. Have whatever day you feel like havng..all the same to me. And if you want to start following me around threads pestering me i can just press the go fuck yourself button rather than continue to bandy words wth a charlatan intent on deliberate misrepresentation. Most likely for the ends of yet another secret lets get CR banned PM campagn . Just like the prevous one .
Best of British with it .Old bean . Now toodle pip .
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1. You came out with a racist slur against frogwoman ("Jewish beef").
2. Being of Jewish descent is a race, Mastermind.
3. I haven't said anything ever here about your Irish background, and nor would I do so. Clear enough for you?
4. I have zero interest/intent on seeing you get banned here.
5. If it wasn't for you laying into frogwoman, I would have happily left you well alone, regardless of my own personal feelings towards you.
6. OK then, we can either press the "fuck you etc etc" buttons to each other constantly, or maybe.....you could at least acknowledge that what you said to frogwoman was highly offensive.

Have a lovely day yerself, darling x
 
Combustible said:
If it is a red herring why has he twice posted the link? His claim is that the Ukrainian government is giving the far right militia lebensraum in eastern Ukraine and it reasonable to find out if it is true or whether he has just posted it as fact based on the snippet of text which you don't have to pay for.
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well the defence minster has publicly outlined plans for the resettlement of the population after the filtration process . The prime minster has also announced that once the subhumans have been defeated that land will be cleaned . So its reasonable to assume they may not intend giving Monsanto all of it post resettling the inhabitants and may well reserve some of it for their troops too. its unlikely they intend to let it lie barren . Eastern Ukraine comprises ts very best agricultural resources. Monsanto wll get most of it i suspect though .
 
MellySingsDoom said:
1. You came out with a racist slur against frogwoman ("Jewish beef").
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a beef is simple slang for an animosity. an argument..a dispute...a grudge..havng a problem with someone or somethng.its not any kind of insult . Asking whether her illogical grudge dispute or animosity towards Russians ..her beef..was down to her background.isnt any iind of racial slur. whatsoever...or a slur of any description.

you and i now have a beef also . We have been havng a major beef . i have a beef with you. its nether an irish beef or a jewsh beef..its a very pissed off with being labelled a racist by some twat who doesnt know what beef means beef .

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Beef

Now toddle off like a good chap .
 
Casually Red said:
a beef is simple slang for an animosity. an argument..a dispute...a grudge..havng a problem with someone or somethng.its not any kind of insult . Asking whether her illogical grudge dispute or animosity towards Russians ..her beef..was down to her background.isnt any iind of racial slur. whatsoever...or a slur of any description.

you and i now have a beef also . We have been havng a major beef . i have a beef with you. its nether an irish beef or a jewsh beef..its a very pissed off with being labelled a racist by some twat who doesnt know what beef means beef .

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Beef

Now toddle off like a good chap .
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1. I know what "beef" means, thank you, and if I made an "Irish beef" remark against you, I would rightly be piled on by everyone around here for making a racist remark.
2. Do you acknowledge that being of Jewish descent is indeed a race?
3. Why did you bring frogwoman's Jewish background into it in the first place?
4. Can you not at least remotely see how offensive what you said was?
 
Casually Red said:
well the defence minster has publicly outlined plans for the resettlement of the population after the filtration process . The prime minster has also announced that once the subhumans have been defeated that land will be cleaned . So its reasonable to assume they may not intend giving Monsanto all of it post resettling the inhabitants and may well reserve some of it for their troops too. its unlikely they intend to let it lie barren . Eastern Ukraine comprises ts very best agricultural resources. Monsanto wll get most of it i suspect though .
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Are you claiming that this is all outlined in that 36 second clip? How do you know that it is an accurate translation and that it means that the civilian population will be placed in camps? Why is it in no other news source that even looks slightly reliable? It is possible of course that this is their plan, but it would be a bit odd for the government to publically come out with this but for no-one to report it. If they didn't want people to know why would they have said anything at all.
 
Plenty of Ukraine (leaders) have stated what they want to do with Russian speaking people (and it's far from pleasant or even human).
I still can't believe that my British government leaders back these fascists and bastard Nazi murderers.
I asked my wife to get some potassium iodine pills the other day:facepalm:, this situation could have so easily have been resolved but we are led by such imbeciles.
 
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