Ukraine

[Casually Red]

They're up there with the worst. I suppose the series of purges in the 1930s. Katyn maybe (22,000 dead). We're talking about a million people being forced from their homes in a couple months, god knows how many arrests, and how many executions. We don't even have the final casualty figures yet. Looks like it will be a lot higher than those currently reported.

Not sure it can get much worse than the destruction of towns.

it definitely can get worse. We need to remember the cash strapped junta have promised their Banderist followers payment in the form of the land and property in the east.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...-to-soldiers-in-the-east-for-free-352100.html

that puts their terror tactics and and hysteria about humanitarian aid into proper perspective. The parallels with Cromwells Irish policy and Hitlers eastern conquest for lebensraum are perfectly obvious. These people are deliberately being driven out and murdered by followers of a rotten death cult whose government openly calls those they intend to plunder subhumans . And theyll ensure they dont come back for their own personal gain.

Almost a million people forced to flee by forces whove been promised their land in payment for driving them out. its ethnic cleansing . By followers of a cult that brought us delights such as Volyn . And to this day proclaim the animals responsible for that Heroes of Ukraine. As does their government mass media educational system etc.

 

[Casually Red]

Why do I get the impression that DairyQueen's intervention here has the potential knock-on effect of distracting us all from whatisface's disgraceful racist slur against frogwoman? Well, some of us have very long memories indeed, and if he shows his face here on this thread again, I for one will be reminding him of this, for sure.

serously go and fuck yourself

actually no...go for it. Youll actually need to remind me what my racst slur was to begin with . Come on out with it . On behalf of us too..no less .

 

[Casually Red]

Bit early to be hitting the uisce beatha, old chap.

the irony was it was a particularly poncey 12 quid bottle of wine. Washing down some home made falafel black olive and ciabatta sandwiches.

 

[Idris2002]

You were wanting this comparison, I didn't. At first, it was because 'Stalinism would win'. Then, it was I don't know about the scale of the purges. Katyn was on the scale of the purges. Sure, wider Polish society was unaffected by Katyn, but it was still a purge and very similar to those that took place earlier.

Wider Polish society was and is very much affected by Khatyn!

Non-Polish person: It's a nice day.

Polish person responds: Yes, it's a nice day - but have you heard of the Khatyn massacre?

 

[Idris2002]

the irony was it was a particularly poncey 12 quid bottle of wine. Washing down some home made falafel black olive and ciabatta sandwiches.

How wonderfully metrosexual of you. We'll make you adapt to the New Ireland yet, me boyo.

 

[Casually Red]

Wider Polish society was and is very much affected by Khatyn!

Non-Polish person: It's a nice day.

Polish person responds: Yes, it's a nice day - but have you heard of the Khatyn massacre?

their government though tends to be less vocal about the much much worse events of Volyn in the same period. As it stands the Polish government have apologised for the victims being in Uraine. While theres no apology from the Ukrainian govt who extol the animals behind it as national heroes. And bestow modern honours on them . While incorporating their ideological outlook into the states national curriculum.


eta

the people cleansing eastern uraine today are the unashamed ideological heirs of the people who did this to almost 90000 men women and children of all ages 70 years ago . Egged on by a junta who honours the filth responsble as natonal heroes. And who promises to pay their gunmen wth the dispossessed land and property of the subhumans theyre driving out. All done with vocal western military media and poltcal support . Even financial and material support.

some of those images are pretty graphic so beware. The point is those people ...almost all of them....were deliberately killed in that gruesome manner to spread maximum terror. But if the past is being thrown up at ethnic russians on here then its fair to highlight the ideology and nature of the forces those people are fighting against today. Because this s what their state officially calls heroism today . And hands out posthumous medals for.

graphic

http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2578-europeans-seems-you-are-shameless.html

 

[DairyQueen]

Aye, but your the one who said I didn't understand Israels actions in a Gaza, I asked you to " enlighten me" now you can do so here or you can trot off to the Gaza thread and do it there?

No the point about Israel is that we do not blame Egypt or anyone else for Israeli policy decisions.

 

[DairyQueen]

It goes a long way to understanding Putins actions in the Ukraine, his yearnings towards when Russia had an empire and was feared by the West, Gorbachov realised the USSR was unworkable,as is the case of most empires in decline, but does Putin?
Also swearing does nothing for your argument.

Well that is one interpretation. The original point is that Russians who resent Gorbachev do so on fairly logical grounds. Most Russians I have met (the younger ones) tend to not care so much. None think it is incoherent or stupid to blame Gorbachev for the way in which Russia 'opened up'.

The other point, about whether this is Russian expansionism, Russian (and Soviet) defense policy has traditionally been centred around defence. There is other economic issues between Ukraine and Russia. The fundamental problem here is that Ukraine has failed to integrate the Russian population into its country and its response to perfectly legitimate complaints from Russian-speaking areas, and Russian-Ukrainians in particular, has been to arrest them, imprison them and defame them. The complaints of these people may well soon be that Russia has not gone far enough in its support of their causes, as people here were suggesting last week.

 

[seventh bullet]

He started the process of dragging Russia into the 20th century by realising that no economy could maintain a 25% rate of GDP on military expenditure, he wasn't perfect by any means,but IMO anyway he went a long way to removing the fear and possibility of a nuclear conflict.

Soviet modernity (a variation of western modernity) was very much of the 20th century.

 

[seventh bullet]

I am selective? You want to compare the war crimes in eastern Ukraine with Stalinist purges.

I think that with your poor grasp of pre-war Soviet and connected to that 'Stalinist' history, you were wanting to do that (as silly as it may be) by asserting Ukrainian government actions in eastern Ukraine are up there with the worst of Soviet atrocities.

To be honest, I really can't be arsed with this any more.

 

[Casually Red]

anyways so despite the mountain of western media and govt bullshit about humanitarian aid really being the fifth Cossack paratroop division cunningly disguised as loaves of bread ...the trucks have now delivered it and gone home without incident . After a full week of being dicked about by Ukrainian customs under deliberate orders not to let it in regardless . Eventually the russians just ignored the cunts endless obfuscations and ploughed on .

we can take it as read from their reactons to the aid in the first place and then later its delivery western powers and their puppet medias support the deliberate starvation of those being beseiged. Because absolutely nowhere in their condemnations of humanitarian aid deliveries do they even mention a humanitarian crisis in urgent need of addressing. The rotten cunts.

 

[seventh bullet]

anyways so despite the mountain of western media and govt bullshit about humanitarian aid really being the fifth Cossack paratroop division cunningly disguised as loaves of bread ...the trucks have now delivered it and gone home without incident . After a full week of being dicked about by Ukrainian customs under deliberate orders not to let it in regardless . Eventually the russians just ignored the cunts endless obfuscations and ploughed on .

we can take it as read from their reactons to the aid in the first place and then later its delivery western powers and their puppet medias support the deliberate starvation of those being beseiged. Because absolutely nowhere in their condemnations of humanitarian aid deliveries do they even mention a humanitarian crisis in urgent need of addressing. The rotten cunts.

Are you posting from inside the Donetsk People's Republic?

 

[Casually Red]

Well that is one interpretation. The original point is that Russians who resent Gorbachev do so on fairly logical grounds. Most Russians I have met (the younger ones) tend to not care so much. None think it is incoherent or stupid to blame Gorbachev for the way in which Russia 'opened up'.

The other point, about whether this is Russian expansionism, Russian (and Soviet) defense policy has traditionally been centred around defence. There is other economic issues between Ukraine and Russia. The fundamental problem here is that Ukraine has failed to integrate the Russian population into its country and its response to perfectly legitimate complaints from Russian-speaking areas, and Russian-Ukrainians in particular, has been to arrest them, imprison them and defame them. The complaints of these people may well soon be that Russia has not gone far enough in its support of their causes, as people here were suggesting last week.

Russia simply defended itself and its people and its legitimate interests in the Crimea as its always done. What we are seeing in Donets and Odessa now would have happened there too had they not acted. Putin told the DPR people to call off their referendum beforehand . Russia never recognised its results . its not expanding anywhere.

This is NATO expansionism every way you look at it. They are the ones surrounding Russia with bases and missiles on all its borders and for Russia not to try and stymie this even slightly is national suicide. Resisting it is decried as expansionism by the fucing expansionists . Commonsense dictates peace in Europe depends upon a neutral buffer zone..a role Finland Sweden and modern Ukraine have fulflled. That shouldnt be tinkered with . ts madness to try and remove that buffer. And a madness born of aggression to even contemplate it.

instead what we have pulling NATO strings are the very same Messianic lunatics in the US state department who concocted the Iraq nightmare being left there fully intact by that twat Obama and now persuing their madcap policies in europe . First result we had a volent coup..then we had nazis empowered..then we had inevitable civil conflict . Theyve started a civil war and a cold war that could possibly become even bigger than that...possible world war f thngs go on in this vein . When the entire time throughout Russia pushed for dialogue and was rebuffed everytime. The yans via NATO are trying to drag the world into a confrontation and possibly war with Russia . And they wont stop in Ukraine either . They want Russia itself smashed .

Just wait till St Petersburg and watch them try and use the elections there as the catalyst for their next colour coup . Because Nuland and co invested even billions more in democracy building there than they did in Ukraine .

 

[DairyQueen]

I think that with your poor grasp of pre-war Soviet and connected to that 'Stalinist' history, you were wanting to do that (as silly as it may be) by asserting Ukrainian government actions in eastern Ukraine are up there with the worst of Soviet atrocities.

What a load of crap. Your basic argument is that the worst of Soviet atrocities only include the purges (excluding Katyn).

 

[coley]

Russia simply defended itself and its people and its legitimate interests in the Crimea as its always done. What we are seeing in Donets and Odessa now would have happened there too had they not acted. Putin told the DPR people to call off their referendum beforehand . Russia never recognised its results . its not expanding anywhere

Crimea, wouldn't argue with your appraisal, the Crimenians see theirselves as part of Russia, and any interventions would have been a bit two faced.

This is NATO expansionism every way you look at it. They are the ones surrounding Russia with bases and missiles on all its borders and for Russia not to try and stymie this even slightly is national suicide. Resisting it is decried as expansionism by the fucing expansionists . Commonsense dictates peace in Europe depends upon a neutral buffer zone..a role Finland Sweden and modern Ukraine have fulflled. That shouldnt be tinkered with . ts madness to try and remove that buffer. And a madness born of aggression to even contemplate it.

Again, hard not to disagree, esp with Cameron's claim the EU should expand to the shores of the Baltic,
though I think its more an expression of free trade ( read capitalist expansion) then an overtly militaristic expansion.


instead what we have pulling NATO strings are the very same Messianic lunatics in the US state department who concocted the Iraq nightmare being left there fully intact by that twat Obama and now persuing their madcap policies in europe . First result we had a volent coup..then we had nazis empowered..then we had inevitable civil conflict . Theyve started a civil war and a cold war that could possibly become even bigger than that...possible world war f thngs go on in this vein . When the entire time throughout Russia pushed for dialogue and was rebuffed everytime. The yans via NATO are trying to drag the world into a confrontation and possibly war with Russia . And they wont stop in Ukraine either . They want Russia itself smashed .

Just wait till St Petersburg and watch them try and use the elections there as the catalyst for their next colour coup . Because Nuland and co invested even billions more in democracy building there than they did in Ukraine .

But unfortunately you then lose the plot.

 

[coley]

Soviet modernity (a variation of western modernity) was very much of the 20th century.

Possibly being a bit dim, but could you expand on that?

 

[Casually Red]

But unfortunately you then lose the plot.

hows that

we already have an economic war going on and we are pretty much back into a cold war . Against the backdrop of military conflict that has the potential to escalate. Nuland and her cronies are directly responsible for this dangerous mess just as their equally responsible for the mess in Iraq . Throughout Russia has requested dialogue but has been rebuffed and scorned and armed coercion persued instead.
Brzezinski..the genius who created al qaeda ...is also part of Obamas team of advisors . Hes made clear he wants Russia broken into little pieces. if those people wanted peace and partnershp with Russia the sensible thing to do is not try and drag Ukraine into their miltary orbit . Partcularly by means of a violent coup followed by mass represson and civil war right on Russias border . Russia itself is next on the agenda once theyve mopped up in Ukraine.

Putin is now starting Russia along an economic road were its to become self sufficient in foodstuffs and those type of essentials. Thats a definite war calculation and quite worrying in my book .

 

[seventh bullet]

What a load of crap. Your basic argument is that the worst of Soviet atrocities only include the purges (excluding Katyn).

Nope.

 

[seventh bullet]

Possibly being a bit dim, but could you expand on that?

Read your earlier post and think about it.

 

[DownwardDog]

Commonsense dictates peace in Europe depends upon a neutral buffer zone..a role Finland Sweden and modern Ukraine have fulflled. That shouldnt be tinkered with . ts madness to try and remove that buffer. And a madness born of aggression to even contemplate it.

It's up to the people of those countries what alliances or structures they join. It's not up to the paranoid diktats of the Russian Empire.

 

[Casually Red]

It's up to the people of those countries what alliances or structures they join. It's not up to the paranoid diktats of the Russian Empire.

actually its up to Barbara Nuland who wanted and got the people they actually elected overthrown by force for not complying . And then she picked their new junta for them in advance. And now the people who want nothing to do with fucing NATO are being slaughtered and starved ...almost a million of them refugees.

while NATO tells the world they arent permitted to have any aid because the russian army are hiding in the lorries ready to invade. Which of course was complete bollocks because they plainly werent . i think thats whats actually known as a paranoid diktat.

 

[Fuchs66]

Are you posting from inside the Donetsk People's Republic?

I really wish he was!

 

[MellySingsDoom]

serously go and fuck yourself

actually no...go for it. Youll actually need to remind me what my racst slur was to begin with . Come on out with it . On behalf of us too..no less .

Allow me to deliver the memo to you once more: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ukraine.293926/page-259#post-13344715

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Care to respond to the memo then, chief?

e2a: would you care to respond to this too?: [URL="http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ukraine.293926/page-258#post-13344615"]Ukraine[/URL]

 

[butchersapron]

Are you posting from inside the Donetsk People's Republic?

Mentally he is. Which of course is madrid 37.

 

[J Ed]

Donetsk People's Republic soldiers parade captured enemy soldiers then clean the street, bizarre

 

[rekil]

Bit stinky, if even legit.

Donetsk Self-Defense Forces Joined by French Volunteers - Interview

Why are you here?

Guillaume: We support the geopolitical idea of European unity. We are both revolutionaries and traditionalists. We came to Donbas, where civilians are being killed by agents from Kiev. Those who are conducting this terrorist operation in Donbas are the henchmen of the international mafia oligarchs.

You should clearly understand it is the third world war going on. It started in Libya then moved to Syria and now to Donbas. We can see that Russia is one of a small number of countries that challenged and is almost single-handedly fighting international globalism. It is some kind of a Reconquista. We are here to help Russia in this fight.

 

[butchersapron]

Traditionalists means third position. Evolaites

 

[MellySingsDoom]

And talking of Third Positionists, I see that the paranoid racist has posted elsewhere in P&P within the last hour, but - surprise! - has failed so far to respond to the firm evidence of his racism on this thread that I provided him a link to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

[QUOTE="DairyQueen] Ihave not said that anyone has a poorer grasp of history than me. You have claimed I have a poor grasp of history though.[/QUOTE]

I haven't claimed that you've said such a thing, although nice try at dissembling. And yes, I have claimed that YOU have a poor grasp of history, at least based on your posts on this thread.