Ukraine

[seventh bullet]

He was spotted yesterday while making his way to Ukraine to fight alongside the rebels.

 

[DairyQueen]

How disingenuous can you get, comparing relatively-minor (in terms of numbers) atrocities like Katyn, and mass exodus. Apples and pears, chalk and cheese.

It is you and seventh bullet wishing those comparisons. The idea Katyn ("in terms of numbers") was a minor atrocity is a bit silly, and kind of sums up the sort of moral argument that is being put forward by you two.

 

[DairyQueen]

So nuance isn't nuance, it's semantics.
Except, of course, when it's you "doing" nuance.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? What you said

Nope. Elements of the government of part of Ukraine are playing proxies to western interests.

was not nuanced. Particularly when you go on to say, in the same post,

And who were the DRA, and who pulled their strings, paid for war materiel, and trained their personnel, up to and including flying some of their planes for them?

Where's the 'nuance' here? I realise you like Ukraine, but what they are doing constitutes serious war crimes.

 

[coley]

What the hell is that supposed to mean? What you said



was not nuanced. Particularly when you go on to say, in the same post,



Where's the 'nuance' here? I realise you like Ukraine, but what they are doing constitutes serious war crimes.

No,Israel is committing serious war crimes, the Ukranian government is trying to recover its own territory.

 

[DairyQueen]

No,Israel is committing serious war crimes, the Ukranian government is trying to recover its own territory.

I don't think you really understand the kinds of things that Israel do in Gaza.

 

[seventh bullet]

It is you and seventh bullet wishing those comparisons. The idea Katyn ("in terms of numbers") was a minor atrocity is a bit silly, and kind of sums up the sort of moral argument that is being put forward by you two.

'I suppose the series of purges in the 1930s.'

 

[coley]

I don't think you really understand the kinds of things that Israel do in Gaza.

Enlighten me?

 

[DairyQueen]

'I suppose the series of purges in the 1930s.'

You were wanting this comparison, I didn't. At first, it was because 'Stalinism would win'. Then, it was I don't know about the scale of the purges. Katyn was on the scale of the purges. Sure, wider Polish society was unaffected by Katyn, but it was still a purge and very similar to those that took place earlier.

 

[coley]

DairyQueen, just out of interest, do you think Putin & Co regard Gorbachev as having 'failed' Russia?

 

[DairyQueen]

DairyQueen, just out of interest, do you think Putin & Co regard Gorbachev as having 'failed' Russia?

Not sure. Putin likely has a very clear distinction between the Soviet Union and Russia like most Russians.

 

[Fuchs66]

DairyQueen, just out of interest, do you think Putin & Co regard Gorbachev as having 'failed' Russia?

Most Russians do IME

 

[coley]

Most Russians do IME

In that he gave up the Russia empire? Reduced the fear the west had of Russia?

 

[Fuchs66]

In that he gave up the Russia empire? Reduced the fear the west had of Russia?

More the former, but tbh the reasons given tend to be a bit incoherent but many of them seem to consider him a traitor and he is quite intensely disliked.

 

[coley]

Not in the West

 

[DairyQueen]

More the former, but tbh the reasons given tend to be a bit incoherent but many of them seem to consider him a traitor and he is quite intensely disliked.

Nothing to do with the fact he created a situation whereby the education system collapsed, policing became non-existent, he more-or-less caved in to emerging oligarchs (who proceeded to fight with one another), the privatisation of all of Russian assets, the health system collapsing, and poor maintenance of public buildings? Then there is the fact that the western powers then used the opportunity to stick the boot in further, while the old western countries quietly applauded the rise of anti-Russian sentiment in eastern europe. Yes Fuchs, totally incoherent, a completely illogical conclusion to draw from all of that.

 

[Fuchs66]

Nothing to do with the fact he created a situation whereby the education system collapsed, policing became non-existent, he more-or-less caved in to emerging oligarchs (who proceeded to fight with one another), the privatisation of all of Russian assets, the health system collapsing, and poor maintenance of public buildings? Then there is the fact that the western powers then used the opportunity to stick the boot in further, while the old western countries quietly applauded the rise of anti-Russian sentiment in eastern europe. Yes Fuchs, totally incoherent, a completely illogical conclusion to draw from all of that.

Not from the replies I've heard! But carry on making your own interpretations of my posts!

 

[Fuchs66]

Not in the West

True but as always the truth probably lies in the middle ground somewhere.

 

[coley]

Nothing to do with the fact he created a situation whereby the education system collapsed, policing became non-existent, he more-or-less caved in to emerging oligarchs (who proceeded to fight with one another), the privatisation of all of Russian assets, the health system collapsing, and poor maintenance of public buildings? Then there is the fact that the western powers then used the opportunity to stick the boot in further, while the old western countries quietly applauded the rise of anti-Russian sentiment in eastern europe. Yes Fuchs, totally incoherent, a completely illogical conclusion to draw from all of that.

He started the process of dragging Russia into the 20th century by realising that no economy could maintain a 25% rate of GDP on military expenditure, he wasn't perfect by any means,but IMO anyway he went a long way to removing the fear and possibility of a nuclear conflict.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What the hell is that supposed to mean? What you said

It means what it says.

was not nuanced. Particularly when you go on to say, in the same post,



Where's the 'nuance' here? I realise you like Ukraine, but what they are doing constitutes serious war crimes.

And there, in a nutshell, is the problem with what you say - you're fixated on what Ukraine does, to the relative exclusion of anything Russia does. You've even shown that you're selective with regard to Soviet history.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think you really understand the kinds of things that Israel do in Gaza.

Rather patronising of you, but par for the course, as you appear to believe that you have a superior understanding of history and current affairs to anyone else.

 

[coley]

Rather patronising of you, but par for the course, as you appear to believe that you have a superior understanding of history and current affairs to anyone else.

Still waiting for her to enlighten me.

 

[DairyQueen]

He started the process of dragging Russia into the 20th century by realising that no economy could maintain a 25% rate of GDP on military expenditure, he wasn't perfect by any means,but IMO anyway he went a long way to removing the fear and possibility of a nuclear conflict.

What has that got to do with the post? You don't agree with those Russians that resent Gorbachev, so fucking what?

 

[DairyQueen]

Rather patronising of you, but par for the course, as you appear to believe that you have a superior understanding of history and current affairs to anyone else.

I have not said that anyone has a poorer grasp of history than me. You have claimed I have a poor grasp of history though.

 

[DairyQueen]

And there, in a nutshell, is the problem with what you say - you're fixated on what Ukraine does, to the relative exclusion of anything Russia does. You've even shown that you're selective with regard to Soviet history.

I am not 'fixated' on what Ukraine does. I am interested in Ukrainian politics. I blame the current Ukrainian government for the crisis in Ukraine. Sure, Russia is not blameless but neither is America, who really allowed this conflict turn into a war. Ukrainian policy and behaviour since the coup has been disastrous and criminal with consequences that were predictable.

I am selective? You want to compare the war crimes in eastern Ukraine with Stalinist purges.

 

[DairyQueen]

Still waiting for her to enlighten me.

And get on another massive tangent on Israel? What would be the point? If you want to find out what Israel is doing and discuss it, post in the Gaza thread.

 

[coley]

And get on another massive tangent on Israel? What would be the point? If you want to find out what Israel is doing and discuss it, post in the Gaza thread.

Aye, but your the one who said I didn't understand Israels actions in a Gaza, I asked you to " enlighten me" now you can do so here or you can trot off to the Gaza thread and do it there?

 

[coley]

What has that got to do with the post? You don't agree with those Russians that resent Gorbachev, so fucking what?

It goes a long way to understanding Putins actions in the Ukraine, his yearnings towards when Russia had an empire and was feared by the West, Gorbachov realised the USSR was unworkable,as is the case of most empires in decline, but does Putin?
Also swearing does nothing for your argument.

 

[Casually Red]

Forgotten Grozny?

lets get this clear then ...what happened in the Grozny war over a decade ago justifies slaughtering civilians in Donetsk today. ????That seems to be the essential gist of what yourself and VP are heavily implying . Events of the distant past justify Banderist war crimes today against beseiged civilians whove harmed nobody.
Thats the parallel logic used by those fucknuts wth their rucksacks on the london underground. Utter hatred.

The hatred here is perfectly obvious when theres a very obvious humanitarian crisis ... half a million refugees .indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas...thousands dead ... water and power deliberately cut off ..food and medicine almost non existent..but rather than the very obvious and sane position that those people need emergency aid immediately regardless of who they are and who donates it ...theres a consensus on here actually supporting humanitarian aid being kept out. On the grounds of absolute horsehit. The same rotten logic used by the iDF in Gaza. That rotten equation only works when the people who desperately need the aid can be successfully demonised as an ethnic group . Which these people most certainly have been .

And on these boards it even sinks so low as to posting links to heavily biased political ngos making absurd hysterical claims about the mongol hordes attacking decadent art as barbaric enemies of civilsation ...that dont stand up to even passing scrutiny...alongside others indulging in perjoratve ethnic stereotypes to justify the beseiging of the drunken Asiatic enemy of civilization hordes. . And stll others justifying their slaughter on what some tsar or that Georgian did long before these people were even born .

And its from all that i derive an unmistakable sense of ethnic hatred towards this beseiged population. And scratch my head as to where in the name of suffering fuck it actually derives from.

But having now been made aware im obvously barking up the wrong tree because ....some of you lots best freinds are Russians .........ill have to accept ive gotten it completely and utterly wrong and just imagined it . Because its actually me thats the bigot.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you not on your way yet you silly racist?

 

[coley]

lets get this clear then ...what happened in the Grozny war over a decade ago justifies slaughtering civilians in Donetsk today. ????That seems to be the essential gist of what yourself and VP are heavily implying . Events of the distant past justify Banderist war crimes today against beseiged civilians whove harmed nobody.
Thats the parallel logic used by those fucknuts wth their rucksacks on the london underground. Utter hatred.

The hatred here is perfectly obvious when theres a very obvious humanitarian crisis ... half a million refugees .indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas...thousands dead ... water and power deliberately cut off ..food and medicine almost non existent..but rather than the very obvious and sane position that those people need emergency aid immediately regardless of who they are and who donates it ...theres a consensus on here actually supporting humanitarian aid being kept out. On the grounds of absolute horsehit. The same rotten logic used by the iDF in Gaza. That rotten equation only works when the people who desperately need the aid can be successfully demonised as an ethnic group . Which these people most certainly have been .

And on these boards it even sinks so low as to posting links to heavily biased political ngos making absurd hysterical claims about the mongol hordes attacking decadent art as barbaric enemies of civilsation ...that dont stand up to even passing scrutiny...alongside others indulging in perjoratve ethnic stereotypes to justify the beseiging of the drunken Asiatic enemy of civilization hordes. . And stll others justifying their slaughter on what some tsar or that Georgian did long before these people were even born .

And its from all that i derive an unmistakable sense of ethnic hatred towards this beseiged population. And scratch my head as to where in the name of suffering fuck it actually derives from.

But having now been made aware im obvously barking up the wrong tree because ....some of you lots best freinds are Russians .........ill have to accept ive gotten it completely and utterly wrong and just imagined it . Because its actually me thats the bigot.

Grozny., just a we're reminder
i

The attack was met with an official denial on the part of the Russian authorities, who insisted that no civilians died in the blasts and provided a number of widely varying and conflicting alternative explanations.[2][10] Despite an early admission by Aleksandr Veklich, a Russian military spokesman in the region, that the market (Russian officials typically characterised the marketplace as "an ammunition market" and "terrorist headquarters"[7]) was destroyed in a "special operation in which no artillery or aircraft were involved",[1][4][10] Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin claimed that the explosions were the results of a "clash between gangs" and denied information that the Russian forces were involved in any way in the events in Grozny.[

Names, denials? Ring any bells?