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Ukraine

butchersapron said:
I wouldn't worry too much - it's just him. Look at all that addled fantasy stuff he posted lat night. Who takes him seriously?
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Quite. I gave up on him around the time he was banging the drum for the 70's/80's Argentinian junta. And coming out with very dubious stuff about Jewish people/Judaism.
 
Casually Red said:
who makes this clear ???

who the fuck ????

who ?????????


fucking hell.... the godforsaken useless likes of strings of uberliberal pish ...like...ffs frogwoman.. who utterly despises all russians over some jewish beef ....or god forbid please heavens save us ....butchers fucking apron...is that who youre gong wth as commentators here....

ffs

the guy whos seriously ordering me not to go there...old Stalinist antifascist mate.... because im too old and uselesss is actually 3 years older than me...some useless wankers are callng the 17 young marxists who i know are already dead..killed stone dead fighting and killing fascists and open neo nazis....... mugs ...listening to these uberliberal n brxton shitebags

wattever floats yer boat

fuc off bac to your bbc...guardan whatever
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Trying to buy cred off of other peoples' deaths again, Red?

And your mate should rest easy: There's no danger of you going off to fight for your beliefs, is there?
 
frogwoman said:
wtf?? I don't despise all Russians ffs :facepalm: where the hell did you get that idea?!? ive actually been there, ive lived in a Russian speaking country, got friends there

back that up right now :facepalm:!
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I think that the problem is that you dared express an opinion contrary to his - on Transnistria, I think, a while back - and for that you must be a Russian-hater. It's how he rolls.
 
ViolentPanda said:
I think that the problem is that you dared express an opinion contrary to his - on Transnistria, I think, a while back - and for that you must be a Russian-hater. It's how he rolls.
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thing is, I actually think they might as well make transnistria independent, if were going to look in terms of independence claims having validity, I don't agree with nation states etc etc but its got about the same "right" to independence as does Kosovo, (and negotiations around its status during the last 15 years involve transnistrian representatives as well) I just don't think that we should have any illusions in the putin govt etc
 
butchersapron said:
I think CR's despicable posts last night
do accurately demonstrate the sort of great-men/great state third positionism that his form of anti-imperialism has led him to. Attacking what he thinks is racism on what are transparently racist grounds (leaving aside for now the assumption that people with Jewish heritage are motivated politically by 'Jewish beef'). Like all modern day third-postionists CR is proudly anti-racist in his racism. And this has been hiding this 1mm under the surface all throughout this thread and his other contributions from day one.
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Frankly, if anyone has been anti-Russian on this thread, it's me, and that's not due to "Jewish beef", it's due to what their empire has historically done to Ukraine. Yes, the Russian empire treated Ukrainian (and Russian and well, just about every nationality of) Jews abominably, but the source of my hate is the imperialism - imperialism that arguably continued existing right through the Soviet period (although I suspect that seventh bullet knows far more about that than I do). That imperialism harmed far more of the subject populations than just the Jewish elements of those populations.
 
I don't mind Casually Red, he does post up some good links. Not sure where the whole frogwoman stuff comes from, but I do have serious concerns about the types of people that we seem to be supporting in Ukraine and the very passive way the British public are swallowing stories from there. "Oh, we're fighting the Russians now? What an opportunity to unfurl the Union Jack! More tea Trevor? Tralalalala"
 
ViolentPanda said:
Frankly, if anyone has been anti-Russian on this thread, it's me, and that's not due to "Jewish beef", it's due to what their empire has historically done to Ukraine. Yes, the Russian empire treated Ukrainian (and Russian and well, just about every nationality of) Jews abominably, but the source of my hate is the imperialism - imperialism that arguably continued existing right through the Soviet period (although I suspect that seventh bullet knows far more about that than I do). That imperialism harmed far more of the subject populations than just the Jewish elements of those populations.
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While this does not excuse Russia, all major powers are imperialistic. We're rich, Russia is poor, so we can afford to moralise. What Ukraine is doing in the east ranks up there with the worst of Soviet atrocities. Fair enough they are being egged on by the West and are being provoked (i.e., under similar circumstances most Soviet crimes took place). But, seriously, when you start aiming artillery at residential areas because "they are all Russian soldiers" you really have to step back and work out what the fuck is going on.
 
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DairyQueen said:
While this does not excuse Russia, all major powers are imperialistic. We're rich, Russia is poor, so we can afford to moralise. What Ukraine is doing in the east ranks up there with the worst of Soviet atrocities. Fair enough they are being egged on by the West and are being provoked (i.e., under similar circumstances most Soviet crimes took place). But, seriously, when you start aiming artillery at residential areas because "they are all Russian soldiers" you really have to step back and work out what the fuck is going on.
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Forgotten Grozny?
 
DairyQueen said:
While this does not excuse Russia, all major powers are imperialistic. We're rich, Russia is poor, so we can afford to moralise. What Ukraine is doing in the east ranks up there with the worst of Soviet atrocities. Fair enough they are being egged on by the West and are being provoked (i.e., under similar circumstances most Soviet crimes took place). But, seriously, when you start aiming artillery at residential areas because "they are all Russian soldiers" you really have to step back and work out what the fuck is going on.
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Soviet atrocities internally (some of it within the context of perceived foreign threats)? You know me enough on here to see that I don't treat Stalinism in a simplistic fashion, but come on.
 
there used to the the textbook Cold war viewpoints - orthodox( Bad russia ), Revisionist ( poor Russia), Post revisionist ( both were to blame ) - can we have a post post revisionist paradigm to cover the latest scenario ?
 
seventh bullet said:
Soviet atrocities internally (some of it within the context of perceived foreign threats)? You know me enough on here to see that I don't treat Stalinism in a simplistic fashion, but come on.
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We are talking about thousands of people dying here. The circumstances are undoubtedly similar to Grozny. What sort of activities come close to this post World War II?
 
seventh bullet said:
Are they? And so am I. After WWII? The Soviet air force demolition of Herat.
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Eh? In what way are you,as a fragmented state coming out of a deep crisis, attacking a 'separatist' movement with significant foreign support bordering states offering them shelter and logistical support? The Ukrainian air force don't have air superiority, but they have still shelled densely populated urban areas and ensured that water and electricity supplies are disrupted. They have been committing very similar atrocities that the Russians are accused of perpetrating.
 
DairyQueen said:
We are talking about thousands of people dying here. The circumstances are undoubtedly similar to Grozny. What sort of activities come close to this post World War II?
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Grozny (as has been mentioned), Hama (1982), Fallujah, Alleppo, Homs, Gaza and many more, whenever one side of a conflict moves into an urban area or is perceived to have moved there, many civilians will die, it's the nature of urban warfare unfortunately. All of the examples are at least as bad if not worse in the effect on the civilian population as what is going on in the Ukraine.
 
DairyQueen said:
Eh? In what way are you,as a fragmented state coming out of a deep crisis, attacking a 'separatist' movement with significant foreign support bordering states offering them shelter and logistical support? The Ukrainian air force don't have air superiority, but they have still shelled densely populated urban areas and ensured that water and electricity supplies are disrupted. They have been committing very similar atrocities that the Russians are accused of perpetrating.
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You were talking about 'Soviet atrocities' at first (re bombing and shelling of civilians). You've been moving the goal posts the last few. I haven't got a clue what you want now, tbh.
 
DairyQueen said:
While this does not excuse Russia, all major powers are imperialistic. We're rich, Russia is poor, so we can afford to moralise.
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Bullshit. Russia is resource-rich and has leverage over other states because of this. "We" are only "richer" insofar as our so-called democracies currently ensure we don't starve, unlike Russia, otherwise, the 99%/1% equation holds as true there as here.

What Ukraine is doing in the east ranks up there with the worst of Soviet atrocities.
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Please quantify.

Fair enough they are being egged on by the West and are being provoked (i.e., under similar circumstances most Soviet crimes took place). But, seriously, when you start aiming artillery at residential areas because "they are all Russian soldiers" you really have to step back and work out what the fuck is going on.
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For a lot of people, Ukraine isn't even on their internal map, except as somewhere a lot of vodka-drinkers live, so it's hardly surprising that their understanding is propagamda led, and not nuanced, and that such people may not "step back and work out what the fuck is going on".
 
DairyQueen said:
Eh? In what way are you,as a fragmented state coming out of a deep crisis, attacking a 'separatist' movement with significant foreign support bordering states offering them shelter and logistical support? The Ukrainian air force don't have air superiority, but they have still shelled densely populated urban areas and ensured that water and electricity supplies are disrupted. They have been committing very similar atrocities that the Russians are accused of perpetrating.
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No air superiority? Since when do the separatists have an air force?
 
ViolentPanda said:
Please quantify.
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Donetsk-Luhansk Uprising: 2,119 Ukrainians killed according to the United Nations (not including Crimea and Odessa) 188,216-730,000 Ukrainians fled to Russia, 155,800 people displaced within the country
(Ukrainian Russian estimates of casualties will be higher)

Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia: 108 civilians killed, over 500 wounded.
(Probably Czech estimates)

Guerrilla War in the Baltic States
Estonia: 561 killed, 4285 injured,
Latvia: 1,458 killed, 5052 injured,
Lithuania: 20,093 (does not specify injured/deaths)
(Probably Baltic states estimates)

First Battle of Grozny: No figures, Russian estimates 4,000 Chechen estimates 40,000 (Second battle will be something similar)

Uprising of Herat (actually undertaken by Democratic Republic of Afghanistan): 3,000–25,000 dead
 
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ViolentPanda said:
Bullshit. Russia is resource-rich and has leverage over other states because of this. "We" are only "richer" insofar as our so-called democracies currently ensure we don't starve, unlike Russia, otherwise, the 99%/1% equation holds as true there as here.
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Ukraine is a proxy of the West. Democratic Republic of Afghanistan undertook the aerial bombing of Herat.
 
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