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Ukraine

Wasnt his aim to stop Ukraine moving closer to the EU / NATO? How is that going, again?

Once NATO, NATO who take orders from America and the EU, Russia is finished as a country.
That is why the Russian people are terrified of the West.
A deal had been put on the table ages ago but the Americans don't want that, they want a Red Indian scenario.
Don't read any history just keep talking the way you are doing, but don't be surprised when Russia has been lied to and backed into a corner so far( that you seem to want) that mushroom clouds inhabit your bit of turf. Oh by the way why is it American policy to have first strike capability?
You are on the side of mad men.
 
For a start, he is now in a position where he is as close as possible to being at war with Ukraine, is quite close to doing significant harm to his own economy, and is responsible for shooting down an airliner.
FFS anything else you want to singularly blame the bloke for? Climate Change, institutional racism in the US police force, 3rd world hunger, Man Utd's comical start to the season?
 
Once NATO, NATO who take orders from America and the EU, Russia is finished as a country.
That is why the Russian people are terrified of the West.
A deal had been put on the table ages ago but the Americans don't want that, they want a Red Indian scenario.
Don't read any history just keep talking the way you are doing, but don't be surprised when Russia has been lied to and backed into a corner so far( that you seem to want) that mushroom clouds inhabit your bit of turf. Oh by the way why is it American policy to have first strike capability?
You are on the side of mad men.

Mushroom clouds? You're off your head, go have a lie down.
 
Well if we're going to play the tunnel vision game:
Wasnt his aim to stop Ukraine moving closer to the EU / NATO? How is that going, again?
a lot worse than Kerry's aims to fuel flames all around the Eu to maintain global hegemony.
The US is driving a Ukraine shaped wedge between the Eu & Russia so to divide and rule. All those flailing US car makers are itching to see Russia stop the flow of gas to Stuttgart, Ingolstadt, Wolfsburg and Munich. The US fracking companies are positively creaming their pants at the idea too.
Ask yourself, who has the least to lose from all this insanity?
Ahhh, but Obama has a Nobel Peace Prize I hear you say :rolleyes:
 
a lot worse than Kerry's aims to fuel flames all around the Eu to maintain global hegemony.
The US is driving a Ukraine shaped wedge between the Eu & Russia so to divide and rule. All those flailing US car makers are itching to see Russia stop the flow of gas to Stuttgart, Ingolstadt, Wolfsburg and Munich. The US fracking companies are positively creaming their pants at the idea too.
Ask yourself, who has the least to lose from all this insanity?
Ahhh, but Obama has a Nobel Peace Prize I hear you say :rolleyes:

So this is an engineered crisis to boost the US car industry?
 
Wasnt his aim to stop Ukraine moving closer to the EU / NATO? How is that going, again?

from what i can see his aim all along was to keep Ukraine stable and press for a solution that would satisfy everyone. Thats why he publicly pressed Yanukovich not to use repression against protestors and used his influence to broker repeated peace deals between the protestors and Yanukovich..acceding to their demands. Which were then reneged upon and a coup implemented instead.

Followed by an outpouring of Galician chauvinism against ethnic Russians emanating directly from Kiev .. openly expressed contempt and discrimination against them and the mass suppression of political dissent and political parties ....which led directly to ethnic Russians rejecting the coup appointed junta and ..after they were repressed...ultimately the state itself .

Alongside brokering those concessions to the protestors and warning against their repression he was repeatedly calling for tripartite talks between Ukraine Russia and the EU to fnd a solution they could all live with. A necessary solution because the EU accession treaty would mean UkraineS favoured trade status with Russia would have to be renegotiated. Along with gas and all sorts.

Those calls for talks were rebuffed too .

To judge the decision by the junta and its western backers to both renege upon peace agreements and spurn dialogue as Putins failure takes some doing . They took the decision to plunge the country into chaos and suppress internal dissent by brute force discrimination and marginalization . Preventing that idiocy was not within his gift..only to warn of the repercussions of t . But it was certainly within the wests gift to prevent it . Seemingly they encouraged it.

Now it may have escaped your notice but Crimea is now firmly ensconced within Russia..its Black Sea fleet is secure for good with no worries about leases ..accomplished bloodlessly. South Eastern Ukraine is where the bulk of the industry minerals and agricultural land...best in the world..is located. Kiev is totally screwed without it .The DPR forces are knocking the absolute tar out of the Kiev army and advancing along the coast with no sign of any force capable of routing them ... their opponents totally demoralized surrounded and basically bankrupt. if the DPR take Mariupol..which seems very likely...then Odessa will surely be next ..certainly within reach. And Kiev wont have much of a coastline any more...no navy.

Russian military reach ..if they recognize and incorporate rebel Novorussia n the future..will have gone westward...compensating for any reach projected against them .

The EU and NATO can then have the bankrupt unviable ultranationalist freakshow that remains of Ukraine. They bought it and then broke it. its theirs now not Russias job to fix it or prop it up. And in time its current junta will suffer the same fate as the failures that went before them as the fruits of their imposed unrealistic and bigotted policies fall on their citizens.

The very reason why at this very moment the EU and NATO are getting so hysterical and upset and shrieking in such indignation is certainly not because Putin has been defeated. Quite the opposite. Theyve seen victory slip from their grasp when they thought the east was on the verge of defeat . Now its their proxies staring defeat in the face and possible collapse in the field.

And in the face of their threats Putin has sent them a very clear message. Your sanctions and threats will have zero effect and if you want this to stop go tal directly to the DPR . Negotiate with them . Negotiation then entails recognition .

Now at long last the EU are talking about the necessity for negotiations and diplomatic solutions. They could have had that at the very outset but they opted for brute force. Thats what being defeated entails and yet again Putin has secured yet another victory . Largely by sitting back and letting reality bite. Reality has a bit more to bite yet but bite it will .
 
Wasnt his aim to stop Ukraine moving closer to the EU / NATO? How is that going, again?

If you think that most western European nations will want to get in an avoidable conflict over a naval base in thee Black Sea and gas pipelines in Luhansk, I think you will be mistaken. That is what Ukrainian membership now entails.

For the EU members, again ,I really doubt most countries except those that rely on militarism for domestic support (some Eastern European countries, Britain, maybe France) would welcome the prospect of Ukrainian EU membership when a cold war is taking place with one of their major trading partners.

For many countries, except Ukraine, Russia and the USA, how long do you think it will be before people start asking "what's the point of all this?".
 
So this is an engineered crisis to boost the US car industry?
Automotive, Aerospace, Electrical & Electronics, Chem & Pharma, Steel & other Metals, Optics, Medical Technology, are other sectors that spring to mind where Germany (with it's 35% reliability on Russian gas) has taken their US competitors to the cleaners over the last 15 years
 
For many countries, except Ukraine, Russia and the USA, how long do you think it will be before people start asking "what's the point of all this?".

plenty of people already are asking this . Not least in Germany . Which is why the lies of the BBC are making howls about Russia not stopping n Ukraine but invading NATO countries too . Today they had yet another expert on..an author of a boo entitled Putins threat to the west..or some such. And his nonsense being treated as fact . Bearing in mind nobodies even provided any evidence of an actual Russian invasion force . Presumably not painted white this time.

fears deliberately beng whipped up . The Hitler trope will be resurrected too .
 
Automotive, Aerospace, Electrical & Electronics, Chem & Pharma, Steel & other Metals, Optics, Medical Technology, are other sectors that spring to mind where Germany (with it's 35% reliability on Russian gas) has taken their US competitors to the cleaners over the last 15 years

the place is also blessed with the richest agricultural land in the world . A deep black soil thats fertile beyond belief on absolutely vast plains in the east. Worlds grain basket pretty much .Monsanto..Kraft and a few other conglomerates are posed to steam in . Joe Bidens son is now on the board of their biggest private gas company too. Chevron want to frac the place silly too .

But apart from all that theres Sr Halford Macinders dctum..and what motivates US geo politics in the uni polar world they see themselves n exceptonalsm were they persue a full world spectrum.

‘Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland; who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island; who rules the World-Island controls the world.’


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&hl=en&pg=PA5&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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If you think that most western European nations will want to get in an avoidable conflict over a naval base in thee Black Sea and gas pipelines in Luhansk, I think you will be mistaken. That is what Ukrainian membership now entails.

For the EU members, again ,I really doubt most countries except those that rely on militarism for domestic support (some Eastern European countries, Britain, maybe France) would welcome the prospect of Ukrainian EU membership when a cold war is taking place with one of their major trading partners.

For many countries, except Ukraine, Russia and the USA, how long do you think it will be before people start asking "what's the point of all this?".

I would have agreed with most of that before the crisis really kicked off, but of course thanks to everything that has gone on there isnt an option to just blithely go on as things were before. If Russia is going to be seen as the threat again then NATO - especially the eastern half that well remembers what being part of a Russian sphere of influence was like - is going to want a line drawn in the sand, and they are going to want that line drawn to the east of where it is now.

That is TBH why I think Russian policy over this has been a failure.
 
I would have agreed with most of that before the crisis really kicked off, but of course thanks to everything that has gone on there isnt an option to just blithely go on as things were before. If Russia is going to be seen as the threat again then NATO - especially the eastern half that well remembers what being part of a Russian sphere of influence was like - is going to want a line drawn in the sand, and they are going to want that line drawn to the east of where it is now.

That is TBH why I think Russian policy over this has been a failure.


so in order to avoid failure Russia should have been clever and not sought to protect vital national interests...perhaps even reelected Boris Yeltsin and gotten rid of its gas and maybe even bombed the rebels. in order for NATO to like them .

The NATO countries have completely fuced all the nations theyve meddled in and insisted on imposing their will on..Iraq..Syria..Yugoslavia..Libya. All completely in tatters and pieces after attempts at regme change and internal destabilization to secure it . And now they meddle in Ukraine..foment a coup ..overthrow the president with Nazis ...and completely upset a delicate internal and external social ethnic geopolitical and economic balance which yet again they try and correct by encouraging all out brute force .

And the totally forseeable..utterly inevitable..resulting fractured bloody mess is Putins fault . Never theirs despite the very same identical forseeable outcome everywhere else they fuck about in and try to take over.

The attempt to tae Uraine has been a western affar from the outset..their deliberate policy of ultimatum followed by coup for non compliance. The decision to spurn dialogue and diplomacy has been the wests policy from day one . The tacit encouragement of the coup to suppress dissent with regular military and paramilitary force has been western policy from day one . And the resulting disaster is a direct result of those western policies and their utter failure. Just as theyve failed in every other country they were arrogantly applied to .

theres a point were this gets beyond simple stupidity
 
the place is also blessed with the richest agricultural land in the world . A deep black soil thats fertile beyond belief on absolutely vast plains in the east. Worlds grain basket pretty much .Monsanto..Kraft and a few other conglomerates are posed to steam in . Joe Bidens son is now on the board of their biggest private gas company too. Chevron want to frac the place silly too .

But apart from all that theres Sr Halford Macinders dctum..and what motivates US geo politics in the uni polar world they see themselves n exceptonalsm were they persue a full world spectrum.

‘Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland; who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island; who rules the World-Island controls the world.’


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SiVhwoE4GOsC&lpg=PA5&ots=_uBLvAmp9S&dq=The Geographical Pivot of History nato expansion&hl=en&pg=PA5&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hmm...

Alexander Dugin (through Nikolay Trubetskoy and Peter Savitsky?) has adopted Mackinder's theory in his own geopolitics.

Are you turning into a crude Wikipedia Eurasianist?

lol.
 
just noticed something strange

everytime i try to click onto the borotba website my google changes to yahoo and its not there

happen to anyone else ?
 
Well if we're going to play the tunnel vision game:

a lot worse than Kerry's aims to fuel flames all around the Eu to maintain global hegemony.
The US is driving a Ukraine shaped wedge between the Eu & Russia so to divide and rule. All those flailing US car makers are itching to see Russia stop the flow of gas to Stuttgart, Ingolstadt, Wolfsburg and Munich. The US fracking companies are positively creaming their pants at the idea too.

Disrupting German car production wouldn't suddenly cause the US car manufacturers to produce worthwhile models. They're flailing because of shite products, not because the Germans have been particularly perfidious. If they're assuming they'll pick up those customers who've been buying German, they've obviously completely ignored Toyota's Lexus range, which is far more likely to pick up those Germanophiles than anything currently made by GM or its rivals.

Ask yourself, who has the least to lose from all this insanity?
Ahhh, but Obama has a Nobel Peace Prize I hear you say :rolleyes:

Most living humans are well aware that the award of a Nobel Peace Prize is almost always an exercise in deep irony, which means they don't actually expect prize holders to do anything as quotidian as attempt to bring peace.
 
junta now finally admitting the previously besieged Luhansk militia have now driven them back from the airport and recaptured t. Thatll make the job of supplies and reinforcements a lot more difficult. Another major setback .
 
the place is also blessed with the richest agricultural land in the world . A deep black soil thats fertile beyond belief on absolutely vast plains in the east. Worlds grain basket pretty much .Monsanto..Kraft and a few other conglomerates are posed to steam in . Joe Bidens son is now on the board of their biggest private gas company too. Chevron want to frac the place silly too .

But apart from all that theres Sr Halford Macinders dctum..and what motivates US geo politics in the uni polar world they see themselves n exceptonalsm were they persue a full world spectrum.

‘Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland; who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island; who rules the World-Island controls the world.’


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SiVhwoE4GOsC&lpg=PA5&ots=_uBLvAmp9S&dq=The Geographical Pivot of History nato expansion&hl=en&pg=PA5&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
out of curiosity do you think that was true in 1900 or even 1950? let alone 2000...
 
out of curiosity do you think that was true in 1900 or even 1950? let alone 2000...

well ive read the book many British generals are habitually briefed with to keep them up to speed on why theres an Irish peace process ..the..British... strategic and political thinking behind it and whats actually going on behind what the author calls the necessary political dualisms of the British state as regards Irish affars .... The Geopolitics of Anglo-Irish Relations in the Twentieth Century..by Prof GR Sloan..1997 so reasonably modern . And Mackinders theories are absolutely central to it .Thats what theyre teaching people in Whitehall and what comes out of the Royal Naval College in Dartford . And Sloans a regular geopolitical lecturer on the US military circuit as well .


http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZhAXt8bPF8MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=gr sloan anglo irish relations&source=bl&ots=le0lBfSIhA&sig=8UQaEPpqQJAefVoxdT8c7taumxo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e5wEVPLNJevb7AbWwIBY&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=gr sloan anglo irish relations&f=false


So the issue isnt whether its true or not and whether i believe in it or not ..its whether or not western military strategists believe it is . And they seem to very much . i used to think it was just a British thing but apparently the yanks are well into Mackinder too . Which makes sense as theyre both military partners n Europe and..funny enough.. both constructed that process and flog it as a template for conflict resolution all over the place.

eta
its focus is also about why Macinders theories are more important to Britain following the end of the cold war and detente than they ever were.
 
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Disrupting German car production wouldn't suddenly cause the US car manufacturers to produce worthwhile models. They're flailing because of shite products, not because the Germans have been particularly perfidious. If they're assuming they'll pick up those customers who've been buying German, they've obviously completely ignored Toyota's Lexus range, which is far more likely to pick up those Germanophiles than anything currently made by GM or its rivals.
I was being deliberately obtuse in my reply to Agricola's simplistic viewpoint, hence the intro: "Well if we're going to play the tunnel vision game:" so, my point wasn't specifically about the quality of luxury cars in today's market, it was to highlight that the US is most likely only thinking for themselves when pushing for the confrontational policy of hard sanctions against Russia, because of all the parties involved, they're the least exposed to counter sanctions (turning off the gas).

But anyway, it might be worth playing the scenario through in the context of the Automotive industry, as it's looking increasingly likely to transpire.
Economically Europe depends on Germany's industry which in turn depends on thousands and thousands of its SME's, plus all it's central and eastern European neighbour countries for the supply chain. To varying degrees they all hang on the very same pipelines for their energy supplies. Some entirely.I think it's safe to say that a mid-term cap of Russian gas supplies to the Eu would be classified a bit higher than your mere "disruption". Try catastrophic.
In the event those pipelines were turned off, chaos would break out in Central Europe in a couple of months whilst Russia would be forging ahead establishing economic ties with China, heating up their homes and dacha saunas in the winter months with all that surplus gas while the Europeans are re-running endless episodes of Ray Mears bushcraft while freezing their arses off,frantically cutting down the last trees in the forests across Europe
Fuck knows where things would go from there... One things for sure though, Europe would take a long, long time to pull itself up to any form of stability and, I doubt very much that luxury cars will be high on anyone's shopping list in either the US or Europe. So Lexus won't be cutting it in that US market segment either.

Maybe in the aftermath, the US will start another brain drain of engineers from Stuttgart a la Werner v Braun, just to feed that US "Germanophile" consumer demand.. who knows?

Most living humans are well aware that the award of a Nobel Peace Prize is almost always an exercise in deep irony, which means they don't actually expect prize holders to do anything as quotidian as attempt to bring peace.
Yes, there was deep irony in my post too...

btw I didn't say the Germans had been perfidious either ;)
 
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