Ukraine

[sunny jim]

 

[treelover]

Seems to me Kaka is more pointing out the hypocrisy between these cases in terms of the reaction from western powers - Italy and Sweden faced no sanctions for their violence.

Although I don't think the events in Genoa are completely analogous, shouldn't forget Blair basically said the rioters(and by implication Carlo) got what they deserved

 

[sunny jim]

Loads more here, although most have already been posted on this thread further back.

http://imgur.com/a/1ghhi/

 

[treelover]

Are there any figures to just how protesters are fighting in Kiev and maybe some other regions, is it the case that maybe only 10 K away from Kiev, there is no sign of such violence and dissent.

 

[DrRingDing]

A short interview with some Ukrainian anti-fash http://www.timothyeastman.com/uncat...rei-and-sascha-of-antifascist-action-ukraine/

 

[Mustn't grumble]

And Ukrainian oligarchs have close ties with Russia. No surprise there - it was part of the Russian federation when they stole the factories.

Not of Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR) but the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. But they did buy former USSR factories etc. when the shareholders sold them for a quick karbovanets.

 

[treelover]

These nationalists are here not for rights but for nation and it’s practical for leaders to encourage this, because a focus on nationalism lets them do whatever they want. It’s mostly working class and poor people at EuroMaidan, and their attention needs to be diverted to real problems. Lots of people want to manipulate the people here.

Where are the students and the middle class radicals/liberals who usually are involved in events like these, have they exited, never there?

 

[Gramsci]

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

This is outrageous:

"The history of the Holocaust is part of our own public discourse, our agora, or maidan. The current Russian attempt to manipulate the memory of the Holocaust is so blatant and cynical that those who are so foolish to fall for it will one day have to ask themselves just how, and in the service of what, they have been taken in. If fascists take over the mantle of antifascism, the memory of the Holocaust will itself be altered. It will be more difficult in the future to refer to the Holocaust in the service of any good cause, be it the particular one of Jewish history or the general one of human rights."

So if you point out the presence anti-semitic fascists in the Maidan protests, you are an anti-semitic fascist. Amazing.

Interesting to compare this article by Snyder with one that free spirit posted up a while back by same historian "A Fascist Hero in Democratic Kiev"

Consistent as the rehabilitation of Bandera might be with the ideological competition of the mid-twentieth century, it makes little ethical sense today. Yushchenko, who praised the recent Kiev court verdict condemning Stalin for genocide, regards as a hero a man whose political program called for ethnic purity and whose followers took part in the ethnic cleansing of Poles and, in some cases, in the Holocaust.

Bandera the leader of the far right before and during WW2 was made a "Hero of Ukraine". A public endorsement of a fascist by a democratically elected previous president.

So in this article Snyder is saying that this is symbolically and historically important.

In the article you quote Snyder says the opposite:

More subtly, what this campaign does is attempt to reduce the social tensions in a complex country to a battle of symbols about the past.

Also contrasting the two articles shows that manipulating past history is something that cannot be just blamed on Russia.

The article you quote is not one of Snyder’s best. The fall of communism in Eastern Europe has seen the rise of far right nationalist groups and an increase in racism. ( ie Hungary).

 

[Mustn't grumble]

Snyder says the opposite:

[. . .] a battle of symbols

The British high street will never seem the same again:

 

[Diamond]

Must be odd for many here to see a revolution concentrated on the concept of the rule of law.

 

[Diamond]

As opposed to its destruction.

 

[Mustn't grumble]

What?? A fire sale at Mothercare? 75% off? You serious?

 

[Mustn't grumble]

Must be odd for many here to see a revolution concentrated on the concept of the rule of law.

But why call it a revolution? The evidence offered is that easily less than 5000 peeps in the whole country have got off their arses. That makes it a very small mobilisation given that there are 36m adults in Ukraine's 45m population.

 

[butchersapron]

Must be odd for many here to see a revolution concentrated on the concept of the rule of law.

But not so odd to see you posting utterly ill informed nonsense.

 

[Casually Red]

i have to say some of the analysis here seems a bit too focussed on Right Sector, scum that they are of course along with the far right political parties.

there is no doubt some people in ukraine support the far right/nationalist movements. you can see it from the elections.

so when you get a mass movement - and it is pretty mass in scale - of people attacking the established political class - all the sides in the ukraine are corrupt and crooks, yanukovich, timoshenko et al, you are bound to get involvement from these people. there is also a huge wedge of evidence of people not in the far right supporting this movement and being there right now, tweeting, medics etc.

if the same thing happened in the UK you might well find yourself filling bottles with petrol next to someone from the edl or ukip.

rather like the revolution in serbia that outsed milosevic (with less violence).

and the one that saw Hugo Chavez taken away in a military helicopter .

The Otpor people in Belgrade were a western sponsored outfit ...millions of dollars courtesy of the CIA front National Endowment for Democracy...that were refusing to accept the election results even before there was an election . The hes finished campaign began months prior to any election. They demanded early elections while making it plain they wouldnt be accepting the outcome of them .

A revolutionary movement demanding privatisation, neo liberalism, NATO affiliation and sponsored by the CIA to the tune of millions, who were bombing Serbia at the same time.

Nowadays theyre a revolution for hire corporation . And very active in Ukraine.

 

[TomUS]

Where are the students and the middle class radicals/liberals who usually are involved in events like these, have they exited, never there?

The demographics of the opposition were commented upon earlier. Where are the young people? Where are the women? This is a rebellion of middle aged guys mainly. I think the comment was made that this age group remembers Soviet/Russian domination & is sick of it.

 

[rekil]

IBT article on Svoboda. Cobbled together entirely from other reports apparently but it'll do.

As recently as the 2007 parliamentary elections, Svoboda garnered less than 1 percent of the total vote. Founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine, Svoboda has apparently appealed to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians tired of economic woes and rampant corruption in government. Reports also suggest that the party has derived significant support from the well educated and the young, who suffer from high unemployment.

Among other things, Svoboda seeks to end all immigration and ensure that all civil service jobs are filled by ethnic Ukrainians. The Nation, a leftist American publication, reported that Svoboda also seeks to ban abortions, abolish gun control, “ban the Communist ideology,” and prohibit the adoption of Ukrainian children by foreigners. In addition, Svoboda reportedly supports nuclear power (in the homeland of Chernobyl) and reinstatement of the death penalty.

Svoboda also assails nonwhites. In February, Yuriy Syrotiuk, a Svoboda spokesman, expressed his unhappiness that Gaitana-Lurdes Essami, a half-Ukrainian, half-Congolese singer, represented Ukraine in the Eurovision music contest, citing that she “is not an organic representative of the Ukrainian culture.” Moreover, Svoboda expresses extreme hostility towards homosexuals – party members once attacked and sprayed tear gas at the participants of a gay rights rally in the capital Kiev.

The Svoboda party has also opposed the renaming of streets in the country to Russian-friendly titles.

 

[Casually Red]

Speaking of males, yesterday I suggested there was one way to bring peace to the Square, & the maker of the vid posted by Patteran this morning caught them in all their glory celebrating in Kyiv the 2011 resignation of Berlusconi, the architect of dolce fascismo:




It's true Svoboda (Freedom) have been ignored by west European media, but the BBC yesterday reported that the Prez had met that day 3 opposition leaders: Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Fatherland; leader is blonde-babe-in-jail, Yulia; in last parliamentary vote, Oct 2012, 14.5% of electorate), Vitali Klitschko (Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform; the acronym means 'punch'; 8%), & Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda; 6%):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26267220

In its report the BBC called Svoboda "far-right".

The Communist Party of Ukraine didn't attend the meeting with the Prez. They got almost the same no. of votes as UDAR in 2012. So the BBC was incorrect in saying the meeting involved "Ukraine's three main opposition leaders" - an accurate description, however, was given in the Prez's press statement of last night:
http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/30111.html

(For the attention of frogwoman: one of the 8 attendees at the mtg. was Olena Lukash, acting Justice Minister, 37 years old, & born in . . . Moldova - Ribnita to be exact. Her hubby is head, the Chairman, of Ukraine's MI6.)

The leader of the titty wagglers for democracy is currently hiding in France, given asylum after she took a chainsaw to a massive crucifix that was erected in Kiev in memory of Stalins victims. With her tits out, naturally . Doubt shed be very popular down the Maidan. Even with her tits out .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/pussy-riot-trial-femen_n_1798009.html

Im appaled that my internet search history now includes bare tits, but thems the breaks.

 

[Fuchs66]

The weapons are Sov era D20s. They'll probably just explode when fired. Quality control was counter-revolutionary.

This!
They've probably been dragged from a war memorial somewhere and put on the barricades for effect.

 

[rekil]

Punch up in the parliament!

 

[Casually Red]

almost 80 dead now. Snipers seem to be targetting pretty much anybody, which is reminscent of what happened In Venezuela prior to the anti Chavez coup . Chaos for chaos sake.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kiev-death-toll-955/

 

[J Ed]

What?? A fire sale at Mothercare? 75% off? You serious?

Does anyone know what that V is? I've seen it increasingly in more recent pictures as the fascist symbols seem to have been put away.

 

[TomUS]

almost 80 dead now. Snipers seem to be targetting pretty much anybody, which is reminscent of what happened In Venezuela prior to the anti Chavez coup . Chaos for chaos sake.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kiev-death-toll-955/

MFG. Time for early elections as the opposition has been demanding. I can't see anything else that will stop this.

 

[rekil]

Does anyone know what that V is? I've seen it increasingly in more recent pictures as the fascist symbols seem to have been put away.

Dunno, victory sign is the obvious guess, but rank insignia maybe?

Another Lenin statue gone.

Once the granite statue fell, those gathered sang the national anthem of Ukraine,

Great work lads. Toppers.

When they've run out of statues to topple, and somehow their lives are still shit, what then?

 

[J Ed]

Wow, get a load of this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...0b8d62-9a72-11e3-b88d-f36c07223d88_story.html

Nazi or fascist — These loaded historical terms have been used by both Russian and Ukrainian officials for many months to describe a wide range of opposition leaders and groups. Fake photographs of nonexistent Hitler posters in Kiev have been circulating online; recently the Russian foreign minister lectured his German colleagues for, he said, supporting people who salute Hitler. Of course there is a Ukrainian far right, though it is much smaller than the far right in France, Austria or Holland, and its members have indeed become more violent under the pressure of police clubs, bullets and attacks.

Admittedly she's right about the poster but the rest, wow. The propaganda machine has gone into overdrive.

 

[TruXta]

The propaganda machine has gone into overdrive.

Precisely because it's becoming more and more obvious what kind of people are running the street protests at the moment. With all these pictures of protesters decked in far-right regalia circulating it's not deniable anymore.

 

[Idris2002]

The propaganda machine has gone into overdrive.

It can also take subtler forms, as in this link:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_worl...sts_and_nazis_are_they.html?wpisrc=burger_bar

Let's see what they'll write when the Kiev synagogues are burning.

 

[DaveCinzano]

rank insignia maybe?

Possibly not, seems more of a unit or movement logo - see here:



(From bottom of this post)

 

[J Ed]

It can also take subtler forms, as in this link:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_worl...sts_and_nazis_are_they.html?wpisrc=burger_bar

Let's see what they'll write when the Kiev synagogues are burning.

I didn't realise that Tyahnybok had met with Ashton and Nuland.

 

[J Ed]

Possibly not, seems more of a unit or movement logo - see here:

View attachment 48917

(From bottom of this post)

Would be great if anyone who knows Ukrainian could tell us what it says on those shields.