Ukraine

[goldenecitrone]

And what state would not use lethal force in this situation? The Brits used it in Northern Ireland well before it got to this stage - as did the Italians in Genoa and the Swedes in Gothenburg in 2001.

True. If they were Syrian they could expect torture and then execution. At least they have the chance to run off. Or limp off. Or crawl off.

 

[TomUS]

I'm finding the hypocrisy of the EU and Americans utterly sickening - they helped bring this about, they have blood on their hands.

As does Russia.

 

[Balbi]

Fiver to the first journalist to draw comparisons between the Ukraine and the kerfuffle in Sarajevo a century ago.

 

[goldenecitrone]

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/medical-volunteer-posts-im-dying-after-being-shot-337244.html

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The whole thing is a fucking horrible mess.

I'm finding the hypocrisy of the EU and Americans utterly sickening - they helped bring this about, they have blood on their hands. They actively encouraged the protests and funded the opposition, turning a blind eye to the violent, fascistic nature of the people spearheading the movement whilst criticising Yanukovych. Inevitably the violence has escalated to the point where the cops are using live ammunition, the death toll mounts and the whole country looks like its about to fall apart.

Well give yourselves a big old pat on the back you cunts.

And what state would not use lethal force in this situation? The Brits used it in Northern Ireland well before it got to this stage - as did the Italians in Genoa and the Swedes in Gothenburg in 2001.

If the British govt sent the army in and started taking out protesters with snipers, I'd be against that too. That states will murder people when their authority is challenged is a given. That's no reason to excuse it, though, particularly when that authority has been abused as much as Yanukovych has been abusing his. He's a crook. And there are far-right bastards out to overthrow him. I'm not clear where I stand on this, except that both those particular sides can go fuck themselves.

 

[TruXta]

If the British govt sent the army in and started taking out protesters with snipers, I'd be against that too. That states will murder people when their authority is challenged is a given. That's no reason to excuse it, though, particularly when that authority has been abused as much as Yanukovych has been abusing his. He's a crook. And there are far-right bastards out to overthrow him. I'm not clear where I stand on this, except that both those particular sides can go fuck themselves.

Seems to me Kaka is more pointing out the hypocrisy between these cases in terms of the reaction from western powers - Italy and Sweden faced no sanctions for their violence.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Seems to me Kaka is more pointing out the hypocrisy between these cases in terms of the reaction from western powers - Italy and Sweden faced no sanctions for their violence.

Fair enough. Rereading it, perhaps I misinterpreted. As tomus pointed out, the same can be said of Russia, too. All too reminiscent of the cold war, with both sides backing 'their' bastards in proxy battles.

tbh I'm more interested in what our response should be. I genuinely don't quite know at the moment.

 

[laptop]

Fiver to the first journalist to draw comparisons between the Ukraine and the kerfuffle in Sarajevo a century ago.

"What's happening in Kiev bears a scary resemblance to what happened to that Archduke in Sarajevo."

To server fund, please

 

[TruXta]

Seems to me Kaka is more pointing out the hypocrisy between these cases in terms of the reaction from western powers - Italy and Sweden faced no sanctions for their violence.

In hindsight that is a spectacularly ugly sentence.

 

[Kaka Tim]

If the British govt sent the army in and started taking out protesters with snipers, I'd be against that too. That states will murder people when their authority is challenged is a given. That's no reason to excuse it, though, particularly when that authority has been abused as much as Yanukovych has been abusing his. He's a crook. And there are far-right bastards out to overthrow him. I'm not clear where I stand on this, except that both those particular sides can go fuck themselves.

Well the British army did do just that in northern ireland. But yeah - I agree with you. My point is that the western governments have happily cheered the violent protests on to the point where an even more violent state response was inevitable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well the British army did do just that in northern ireland. But yeah - I agree with you. My point is that the western governments have happily cheered the violent protests on to the point where a violent state response was inevitable.

My first thought on reading your first post was 'Bloody Sunday'. And I agree with you, too. It's a classic 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' response. Cold war thinking.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"What's happening in Kiev bears a scary resemblance to what happened to that Archduke in Sarajevo."

To server fund, please

Editorial in the next edition?

 

[laptop]

Editorial in the next edition?

Diary column, maybe

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Diary column, maybe

"Some nutter has written a paper claiming to have demonstrated a 100-year cycle in human affairs. He uses evolutionary psychology to prove it, citing evidence from early human conflicts on the plains of central Africa. 'We are programmed that way', says the nutter, who goes by the moniker of Steven P."

 

[laptop]

"Some nutter has written a paper claiming to have demonstrated a 100-year cycle in human affairs. He uses evolutionary psychology to prove it, citing evidence from early human conflicts on the plains of central Africa. 'We are programmed that way', says the nutter, who goes by the moniker of Steven P."

Nutter with an appalling haircut?

I'll work on it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This map of Yanukovych's vote in the 2010 election demonstrates the split in Ukraine. Two football matches took place tonight in darker blue regions, where there has been little trouble. Interesting that his support base is well away from Kiev.

Sadly, this shows voting along ethnic lines. Russian-speaking votes for Yanukovych. His legitimacy among non-Russian speakers is low; the legitimacy of his opponents among Russian-speakers is low. The country is split politically along ethnic lines at the moment.

 

[gawkrodger]

shit loads of photos in this thread

obviously some rather graphic

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...os)/page21&s=e59f319380cafbe7904f37294ab77f80

 

[TomUS]

Interesting map. Seems quite probable at this point we'll soon see 2 countries, E. & W. Ukraine.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Interesting map. Seems quite probable at this point we'll soon see 2 countries, E. & W. Ukraine.

Does it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting map. Seems quite probable at this point we'll soon see 2 countries, E. & W. Ukraine.

East Ukraine (and south - Odessa, too) rejoining Russia, west looking west. That's what some people want. Hard to see it not being pretty disastrous, tbh.

 

[laptop]

shit loads of photos in this thread

obviously some rather graphic

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...os)/page21&s=e59f319380cafbe7904f37294ab77f80

Fuck me: Before and after in the Maidan:

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Can anyone confirm that these are Ukraine? They seem not quite right to me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This FT article details some of the complexities. The Russsian-speaking east is also the industrial heartland. But while they do most of their business with Russia, many still also want to look towards the EU . It's not quite a case of Russian-speakers just look east.

The article takes an FT-style look at things, considering business leaders' attitudes, but it is interesting that there is such unease, and deep suspicion about Russia. That's possibly cause for optimism - that the Russian-speaking industrial east doesn't necessarily want to pull apart.

And Ukrainian oligarchs have close ties with Russia. No surprise there - it was part of the Russian federation when they stole the factories. Ukraine has suffered from the same process that saw Russia become a robber-baron state, and has similar problems now.

 

[laptop]

Don't know whether this has been posted:

Via Simon Pirani Just so that we're all clear about one aspect of this situation in Ukraine. The medical service of the Maidan demonstration says that between 67 and 100 people have been killed today. Those figures have been reported by Ukrainska Pravda, the completely reliable news source, and are much higher than the figures currently reported by the BBC. UP and other reliable news outlets have published pictures of the police snipers who are responsible for a large number of these killings. Are there fascists in the crowd? Certainly, like in lots of crowds. Some friends of mine have been threatened by them. Is the regime killing people with the brutality and cynicism of fascist and other authoritarian regimes? Yes. In large numbers. http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/02/20/7015249/

I can't read Ukrainian, but I trust Simon Pirani.

 

[DownwardDog]

Can anyone confirm that these are Ukraine? They seem not quite right to me.

There's a hi res photo here:

http://wpmedia.o.canada.com/2014/02/kiev4.jpg

The cars have Ukranian plates and there is a sign post for Uzhgorod.

The weapons are Sov era D20s. They'll probably just explode when fired. Quality control was counter-revolutionary.

 

[laptop]

Can anyone confirm that these are Ukraine? They seem not quite right to me.

Good point.

They're definitely not in the area of Kiev where the protests are.

[geekery class="useful"]There are no trolleybus wires there.[/geekery]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Don't know whether this has been posted:



I can't read Ukrainian, but I trust Simon Pirani.

Sadly, listening to on the ground reports earlier, that sounds likely. They were piling up the bodies in hotels. I'm reserving judgement about the make-up of the crowds - I've heard plenty of reports suggesting that it is far more than just far-right nationalists, and it's not clear to me that far-right nationalists are controlling things at all.

Reports also that they were killed by single shots - by trained snipers in other words. Picking out people at random. Protesters were searching buildings for them afterwards - I heard a report by someone who was searched by protesters who thought he might be a sniper. All very scary.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Reports also that they were killed by single shots - by trained snipers in other words. Picking out people at random. Protesters were searching buildings for them afterwards - I heard a report by someone who was searched by protesters who thought he might be a sniper. All very scary.

Seems to be getting more common. In Syria, Egypt and now Ukraine, snipers with orders to shoot to kill protesters.

 

[treelover]

Or occupying the buildings (which have white power and Svoboda flags in prominent positions), or setting up the infrastructure of the Euro Maiden square. I wouldn't be surprised if the latter was also the work of far right elements.

any images?

 

[sunny jim]

any images?