Ukraine

[ItWillNeverWork]

White House spokesman on TV now. Still describing them as "peaceful protesters".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can you link this?

BBC world service - radio. It's still on. A series of Ukrainian commentators talking.

 

[J Ed]

White House spokesman on TV now. Still describing them as "peaceful protesters".

I'm assuming that they are re-using this obviously wrong phrase because suppression of violent protest isn't illegal whereas suppression of peaceful protest is a human rights violation.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Rumours of police lending supplies and support to the opposition in towns away from Kiev. This is from an interviewee on BBC World Service.

 

[goldenecitrone]

67 dead in the last three days. Doesn't sound all that peaceful.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Rumours of police lending supplies and support to the opposition in towns away from Kiev. This is from an interviewee on BBC World Service.

I agree with the person from Uganda quoted at the end of that programme. A scramble between the EU and Russia over Ukraine in which the Ukrainian people are the losers. I'm trying to think of a good way out of this, but can't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

White House spokesman on TV now. Still describing them as "peaceful protesters".

Obama does appear to be picking a fight with Russia over this. Bad news.

However, not all the protesters are right-wing nuts, by any means. There appears to be broad support for anti-official-opposition opposition to Yanukovych.

 

[sunny jim]

But they're at the core of the demonstrations, both in the organisation and the provision of the hardcore rioters. The others are being their, unwitting or not, helpers to the fascist cause.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

I am totally baffled. What exactly is the 'protest' about?

 

[DaveCinzano]

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

Timothy Snyder is Housum Professor of History at Yale and a visiting fellow at the Institute for Human Sciences in Vienna.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But they're at the core of the demonstrations, both in the organisation and the provision of the hardcore rioters. The others are being their, unwitting or not, helpers to the fascist cause.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. There is a deeply corrupt political class that all sides are despairing of. Nationalists can thrive in such circumstances, but the grievances they play to are real enough. And I'm not sure it's clear yet exactly what the protesters can be said to stand for as a unified group.

 

[Mustn't grumble]

http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/201...cists-at-core-of-huge-new-paramilitary-force/

Informative article, J Ed, thanx.

Just an aside, something I'm surprised hasn't already been noted. This site was new to me so I had a lil look. It seems to have started 23 Jan:
http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/2014/01/our-new-website/ (cute pic with caption: "Polar bears watch telly. Source unknown")

I went to the 'About'. It talks a lil about "the explosion", "the experience of life", & having to be "patient":
"We have titled our blog Dream Deferred as a homage to Langston [Hughes] and also in the hope that the 'explosion' will come one day soon. The struggle for socialism gives us nourishment, but at the same time the experience of life means we have had to be patient too."
So sensible. Can these be contemporary socialists, activists as they say these days?

It continues:
"Over the past 30 years both of us have been involved in one way or another with the struggle against racism and fascism" . . . yes . . . & then a lil levity:
"We will also write about other political and cultural matters. If you don’t like football, you should look away from posts about West Ham or Spurs!"
Hilário!
http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/about/

And we get an article on "the relationship between jazz and revolutionary black nationalism":
http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/2014/01/amiri-baraka-soul-and-madness-3/

And one entitled, 'Tracks of the Month: January 2014':
http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/2014/01/january-2014-2/

The 'About' ends with an invitation:
"Please feel free to join the debate by posting comments. We welcome serious comments and discussion — whether you agree or disagree.

We hope you enjoy the site.

Martin Smith and Tash Shifrin"

Any takers?

Just saying.

 

[frogwoman]

It can't be the Martin Smith. Surely?

 

[sunny jim]

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. There is a deeply corrupt political class that all sides are despairing of. Nationalists can thrive in such circumstances, but the grievances they play to are real enough. And I'm not sure it's clear yet exactly what the protesters can be said to stand for as a unified group.

So all the photographic evidence showing the far right flags and other fascist paraphernalia aren't a good indication of the aims of the core of the protests? The words 'emu', 'sand' and 'head stuck in' come to mind then.

 

[J Ed]

That Martin Smith? ffs

Based on the twitter, yes... https://twitter.com/dreamdef1

 

[frogwoman]

It's not him is it??

 

[Mustn't grumble]

It can't be the Martin Smith. Surely?

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/issue.php?issue=381 (June 2013 contents)

 

[goldenecitrone]

So all the photographic evidence showing the far right flags and other fascist paraphernalia aren't a good indication of the aims of the core of the protests? The words 'emu', 'sand' and 'head stuck in' come to mind then.

Ostrich, not emu.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Just saw Matt Frei's report on Ch4, he's one of those journalist's that can really sum up things in a day with extraordinary insight.
There are few TV reporters like him, anyone else agree?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So all the photographic evidence showing the far right flags and other fascist paraphernalia aren't a good indication of the aims of the core of the protests? The words 'emu', 'sand' and 'head stuck in' come to mind then.

I'm not denying that they are there. But even Ukrainians seem not to really know what is at the core of the protests. I think there may be more than one core at the moment.

 

[gawkrodger]

A friend posted a couple of reasonably interesting links on FB

news feed (in English) from Ukranian Pravda

http://en.pravda.com.ua/

bunch of stuff from the Autonomous Workers Union

http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/20/maidan-contradictions-interview-ukrainian-revolutionary-syndicalist/

http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/30/the-politicians-obey-crowd-interview-protests-kiev/

and a statement on current events with them calling it the start of civil war

http://nihilist.li/2014/02/20/zayav...t-situation-ukraine-autonomous-workers-union/

 

[andysays]

It can't be the Martin Smith. Surely?

Oh yes it can.

Smith published a book about Jazz/John Coltrane and Black Nationalism about ten (?) years ago. I only know because an SWP friend of mine, knowing I was a Trane fan, took me to a talk/film given by the man himself.

It wasn't very good, or at least it didn't persuade me to have anything more to do with the SWP than I had in the previous 20 years since I'd first encountered them...

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm not denying that they are there. But even Ukrainians seem not to really know what is at the core of the protests. I think there may be more than one core at the moment.

The interesting question for me would be how many of the people actually fighting are from the far-right.

 

[Mustn't grumble]

That Martin Smith? ffs

We dream, we dream.

From deflected permanent revolution to deferred dreams.

How things could have been . . .


(Mr Hughes reading his own poem, 'Dream Deferred')

 

[sunny jim]

The interesting question for me would be how many of the people actually fighting are from the far-right.

Or occupying the buildings (which have white power and Svoboda flags in prominent positions), or setting up the infrastructure of the Euro Maiden square. I wouldn't be surprised if the latter was also the work of far right elements.

 

[goldenecitrone]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/bl...-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

Protesters being shot by government forces according to the Guardian.

 

[redsquirrel]

they are fighting russians..russian imperial foreign policy turned some of this people into extreme ukrainian nationalists..similar example would be the rise of radical islamism in former english colonies ..do you understand?? ..if this protests turn out right they will be a problem for a while but they will disappear ..few nutcases will allways remain ..this happened in most of eastern europe and hopefully it will happen in ukraine..they are in beginning stages of democracy ..they have to start somewhere

Yeah because those radical islamists definitely disappeared didn't they. Christ your own shitty analogy shows what fucking tripe you're talking.

 

[Dan U]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/bl...-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

Protesters being shot by government forces according to the Guardian.

christ the video at the top of that is grim

 

[Kaka Tim]

The whole thing is a fucking horrible mess.

I'm finding the hypocrisy of the EU and Americans utterly sickening - they helped bring this about, they have blood on their hands. They actively encouraged the protests and funded the opposition, turning a blind eye to the violent, fascistic nature of the people spearheading the movement whilst criticising Yanukovych. Inevitably the violence has escalated to the point where the cops are using live ammunition, the death toll mounts and the whole country looks like its about to fall apart.

Well give yourselves a big old pat on the back you cunts.

And what state would not use lethal force in this situation? The Brits used it in Northern Ireland well before it got to this stage - as did the Italians in Genoa and the Swedes in Gothenburg in 2001.