Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
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You think the protests are fascist in nature and run by fascists? That fascism will take over Ukraine?
they are not majority ..and, there's going to be a lot of issues ...but some sort of black and white revolution is obviously not possible ..25 years of my life have been living of that crap but we're moving
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Was it autocratic?
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
I think the protests have a demonstrably large rate of participation by fascists, and that they are not doing this just for shits and giggles. I don't think they will take over Ukraine (the oligarchs aren't about to share the loot out), but they won't be so easily put back in their box either.
gawkrodger
Well-Known Member
interesting interview with some Ukranian antifascists
http://www.timothyeastman.com/uncat...rei-and-sascha-of-antifascist-action-ukraine/
http://www.timothyeastman.com/uncat...rei-and-sascha-of-antifascist-action-ukraine/
seventh bullet
sovietwave
seventh bullet
sovietwave
You didn't answer my earlier question, by the way.
Who cares?
You seem to be suggesting its all right to stand shoulder to shoulder with the far right is its for the greater good, its ok if you get want you want in the end. I doubt that view will have much sympathy here.
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
More likely he's not one of the types who would be a target in any far-right ruled regime, so it's all the same to him.
Its OK, when it all turns out right and they've only smashed a few immigrants and Jews.
no i don't ..i think they are going through a nationalist revolution right now ..and i think that's natural ...and i also know you don't understand that
TruXta
tired
Which nation would that be?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Fuck off Nazi apologist
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
IP address or not, it's a bit odd that you say "we" in one post, and then "they" in another.
I'm pretty sure you are either wilfully ignorant or a fash apologist. And so what? Just because you come from a different E.Europe country you suddenly know all about the situation in Ukraine. You're part of the problem.
Mustn't grumble
Member
"mass movement": let's get things in perspective. There's maybe 1000 protesters in the Kyiv square, & from reports around the country let's say 2000 have been on the streets. Being generous, & we do think in denary, make it 5000 in total.
Ukraine's population has been declining since the end of Stalinism but is now 45m. Electorate (over 18s) = 35.8m. Last national parliamentary turnout, Oct 2012, was 58% (UK 2010 was 65%), that is 20.8m voted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2012
So this mass movement is 5000/35900000 of adults = 0.00013%, so 1 in 7180 could be bothered to get off their arse & go out into the cold.
2.8m live in Kyiv, 1000 may be on the streets. That's, say, 1 in 2200 adults - so more than x3 the national figure, which makes it the most impressive figure in all this.
This mobilisation in Ukraine of a tiny proportion of adults has parallels with Egypt 2011-14 (the 30 June 2013 Tahrir demo was 800000 according to the detailed online calcul'n, Cairo's pop'n 20m, Egypt's 84m). One can also think of Moscow at the time of the attempted coup when Yeltsin addressed 20000 outside 'the White House' - Moscow's pop'n was then 9m, so 1 in 300 adults, say, could be bothered to get off their arse.
That Oct 2012 election: single chamber; half of deputies are first-past-the-post, the remainder by PR (5% threshold). 5 parties got more than a third-of-a-million votes (party list), ranging from 2m to 6m. If "far right" is Freedom (Svoboda) they got the lowest of these, 2.1m votes (10% of the votes, 6% of the electorate); they didn't win a single constituency; & had no seats in the previous, 2007, parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_36 wholesome Jewish boyz in the Petah Tikva hood
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DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Also on that website:
Has To Be Seen To Be Believed: Ukrainian Government Snipers Fire On Protesters, based on two videos clearly watermarked as produced by Radio Free Europe's US Congress-funded Radio Svoboda (no connection to the Svoboda party AFAIK).
TruXta
tired
Where are you getting those numbers from? Pretty certain there were hundreds of thousands on the street at earlier demos.
Mustn't grumble
Member
That's a common but mistaken view: there is no necessity alone acting itself out here, there is no teleology. We had it with The Road to Socialism, with Spreading Democracy in the Middle East. At most it is an aspiration, expressed sincerely or cynically.
The process of living, the continuing (not unfolding) of what is necessary & what is contingent in Ukraine today, will have a singular outcome, but it is not pre-determined & so we can't know in advance what it is (although we can predict). There is no guarantee that the ending of Stalinism will result in "a more democratic society".
Mustn't grumble
Member
I thought it was obvious that I'm referring to the footage of this week, the only evidence us non-participants have of the scale of any public mobilisation.
There has been an escalation of tension this week, the stakes have been raised, so one might have expected increased activity but we have not seen ANY evidence of a "mass movement" (Coolfonz, my emphasis).
Do you have any evidence that more than 5000, say, out of Ukraine's almost 36m adults have moved anywhere except to-&-from work or from the sofa to the kitchen & back again?
Also it is noteworthy that this is almost exclusively a male affair; I have been surprised, as might others here, by how old many of the filmed protesters are, lots more in their 40s & 50s than their 20s & 30s. Consistent with becoming 20 before the end of Stalinism.
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TruXta
tired
Fair enough, I thought you were referring to a wider period of time.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I just received an email asking for donations to a synagogue in kiev where the neighbour of one of the rabbis had got a note telling her to get out because she was a jew.
No idea if that actually happened. It sounds like it but who knows. It also said that everyone was panic buying in preparation for food shortages and that the street lights aren't working at night, people are scared to go out, fires everywhere etc.
No idea if that actually happened. It sounds like it but who knows. It also said that everyone was panic buying in preparation for food shortages and that the street lights aren't working at night, people are scared to go out, fires everywhere etc.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
We seem to have a nazi "come hither" sign out ATM,
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
The bbc reporter talking about the peaceful protesters getting hurt by the Ukrainian police, as a peaceful protester on full waffen SS uniform wanders past. 
Mustn't grumble
Member
Speaking of males, yesterday I suggested there was one way to bring peace to the Square, & the maker of the vid posted by Patteran this morning caught them in all their glory celebrating in Kyiv the 2011 resignation of Berlusconi, the architect of dolce fascismo:
It's true Svoboda (Freedom) have been ignored by west European media, but the BBC yesterday reported that the Prez had met that day 3 opposition leaders: Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Fatherland; leader is blonde-babe-in-jail, Yulia; in last parliamentary vote, Oct 2012, 14.5% of electorate), Vitali Klitschko (Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform; the acronym means 'punch'; 8%), & Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda; 6%):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26267220
In its report the BBC called Svoboda "far-right".
The Communist Party of Ukraine didn't attend the meeting with the Prez. They got almost the same no. of votes as UDAR in 2012. So the BBC was incorrect in saying the meeting involved "Ukraine's three main opposition leaders" - an accurate description, however, was given in the Prez's press statement of last night:
http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/30111.html
(For the attention of frogwoman: one of the 8 attendees at the mtg. was Olena Lukash, acting Justice Minister, 37 years old, & born in . . . Moldova - Ribnita to be exact. Her hubby is head, the Chairman, of Ukraine's MI6.)
It's true Svoboda (Freedom) have been ignored by west European media, but the BBC yesterday reported that the Prez had met that day 3 opposition leaders: Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Fatherland; leader is blonde-babe-in-jail, Yulia; in last parliamentary vote, Oct 2012, 14.5% of electorate), Vitali Klitschko (Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform; the acronym means 'punch'; 8%), & Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda; 6%):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26267220
In its report the BBC called Svoboda "far-right".
The Communist Party of Ukraine didn't attend the meeting with the Prez. They got almost the same no. of votes as UDAR in 2012. So the BBC was incorrect in saying the meeting involved "Ukraine's three main opposition leaders" - an accurate description, however, was given in the Prez's press statement of last night:
http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/30111.html
(For the attention of frogwoman: one of the 8 attendees at the mtg. was Olena Lukash, acting Justice Minister, 37 years old, & born in . . . Moldova - Ribnita to be exact. Her hubby is head, the Chairman, of Ukraine's MI6.)
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