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Ukraine

barney_pig said:
The bbc reporter talking about the peaceful protesters getting hurt by the Ukrainian police, as a peaceful protester on full waffen SS uniform wanders past. :rolleyes:
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You have to laugh.
sid_james.gif
 
frogwoman said:
I just received an email asking for donations to a synagogue in kiev where the neighbour of one of the rabbis had got a note telling her to get out because she was a jew.
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Mossad & the airlift peeps are already there arranging a Magic Carpet operation straight to eastern Palestine: from maligned for being Jews to maligned for being colonists. Why can't life be simple?
 
I'm not sure there would be anything in organising a "rescue" operation for the Israeli state at all. There have been violent demonstrations against immigrants in Tel Aviv, (and now attacks against reform/masorti synagogues by fundamentalists) there is also a serious problem with integrating the Russian/Eastern European population from the former soviet union (as mentioned before with neo-nazis and so on). It might play well with elements of diaspora Jewry (who don't have a vote on deciding what policies Israel should adopt) and a few right-wing russian immigrants, but to be adopted by the state, nah, can't see it. Israel is overcrowded and socially divided as fuck as it is, I can't see them shelling out a few million pounds for a "rescue" operation to Ukraine

so, filing under "bollocks until proven otherwise"
 
Huh. A colleague of mine posted this on facebook:

"After weeks of responding peacefully to arrests and beatings by the riot police, many Ukrainians had had enough. A fraction of the protesters, some but by no means all representatives of the political right and far right, decided to take the fight to the police. Among them were members of the far-right party Svoboda and a new conglomeration of nationalists who call themselves the Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor). Young men, some of them from right-wing groups and others not, tried to take by force the public spaces claimed by the riot police. Young Jewish men formed their own combat group, or sotnia, to take the fight to the authorities."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

This is outrageous:

"The history of the Holocaust is part of our own public discourse, our agora, or maidan. The current Russian attempt to manipulate the memory of the Holocaust is so blatant and cynical that those who are so foolish to fall for it will one day have to ask themselves just how, and in the service of what, they have been taken in. If fascists take over the mantle of antifascism, the memory of the Holocaust will itself be altered. It will be more difficult in the future to refer to the Holocaust in the service of any good cause, be it the particular one of Jewish history or the general one of human rights."

So if you point out the presence anti-semitic fascists in the Maidan protests, you are an anti-semitic fascist. Amazing.
 
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frogwoman said:
Source please?
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my imagination - based on what has happened since 1948, & by other agencies since the early 1880s. (I wasn't being that serious, by the way.)

There are a number of Jewish landmarks in Kyiv & its outskirts, not least Babi Yar, so the thugs may pay them a visit - if they haven't already.

I was surprised that perhaps there are as many as 18000 Judaeo-Ukrainians living in Kyiv. (But like any ethnicised group, especially a religioised one, what does one have to be to enter the fold? Father's side too? Converting? Self-identifying? The mark of one grandparent? A great-grandparent, just 12.5% J+ blood (Max Blumenthal)? Unfortunately the source given here is silent on the matter.)
http://www.jpeopleworld.com/index.php?dir=site&page=country&subj_cs=4755
 
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Idris2002 said:
Huh. A colleague of mine posted this on facebook:

"After weeks of responding peacefully to arrests and beatings by the riot police, many Ukrainians had had enough. A fraction of the protesters, some but by no means all representatives of the political right and far right, decided to take the fight to the police. Among them were members of the far-right party Svoboda and a new conglomeration of nationalists who call themselves the Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor). Young men, some of them from right-wing groups and others not, tried to take by force the public spaces claimed by the riot police. Young Jewish men formed their own combat group, or sotnia, to take the fight to the authorities."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

This is outrageous:

"The history of the Holocaust is part of our own public discourse, our agora, or maidan. The current Russian attempt to manipulate the memory of the Holocaust is so blatant and cynical that those who are so foolish to fall for it will one day have to ask themselves just how, and in the service of what, they have been taken in. If fascists take over the mantle of antifascism, the memory of the Holocaust will itself be altered. It will be more difficult in the future to refer to the Holocaust in the service of any good cause, be it the particular one of Jewish history or the general one of human rights."

So if you point out the presence anti-semitic fascists in the Maidan protests, you are an anti-semitic fascist. Amazing.
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Yes, I read that earlier, absolutely astonishing. Also I have heard about a Jewish group in Euromaidan being mentioned whenever the neo-Nazi elements of the grouping are mentioned but I'm yet to see any proof of it whatsoever.
 
Matt Frei on twitter posted this:

"We filmed protesters capturing a dozen riot police, frog marching them to the police HQ and the releasing them after a civics lecture"

Hmmm. . .
 
Some bits from the BBC website live news feed this afternoon that give some hints about tensions within the establishment, possible shifts in support, coups etc:

The foreign ministry's Facebook page carries this statement by Ukrainian diplomats: "The time has come for a compromise. We call on all sides to do all they can to stop the bloodshed in our country. At this time of crisis, let us recall that common human European values are what unites all Ukrainian citizens. Therefore, we are convinced that signing an association agreement with the EU - support for which started the Euro Maidan (protest movement) - can unite all of us."
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Kommersant newspaper correspondent in Kiev Serhiy Sydorenko says that a call for compromise with protesters on the foreign ministry's Facebook page is a "mutiny" by diplomats and the statement has not been agreed with the foreign minister.
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BBC Monitoring have been following Ukrainian media closely throughout the day. They say Ukraine's main state-run TV channel UT1 appears to have changed its tone of coverage of the protests. It has shown a live relay from the main protest camp in Independence Square without the usual critical commentary. "This is something incredible! More and more people are arriving!" the channel's correspondent said in an unusual outburst.
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More on the decision of Kiev's acting mayor, Volodymyr Makeyenko, to leave President Yanukovych's Party of Regions: "I'm ready to do everything possible to stop fratricide and bloodshed in the heart of Ukraine, in Independence Square. Human life should have the highest value in our country and nothing can stand in the way of this principle," he said.
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BBC Monitoring reports that at least four MPs from the ruling Party of Regions have left the party today.
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Thats not to mention all the events that have been happening away from Kiev, including announcements of autonomy by various regions.
 
Teaboy said:
Who cares?

You seem to be suggesting its all right to stand shoulder to shoulder with the far right is its for the greater good, its ok if you get want you want in the end. I doubt that view will have much sympathy here.
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He's also clearly not bothered about what an emboldened (and probably larger, as they gain credibility from quite clearly being the organisers and foot soldiers of the 'defence') far right will get up to after.

Also, while you'll find few black and white thinkers on here (CR being an exception - though to be fair he's been pretty close to the truth on this one) and we often disagree with each other, there is one thing around which I think there probably is a black and white consensus - and that's that people... who... type... like... this... are... always... utter... fuckwits...
 
And we are firmly into territory that became familiar at times during various arab spring uprisings, featuring these sorts of rumours:

Unconfirmed reports that some of the top officials and their families have been leaving Kiev. Journalist Hanna Babynets from independent Hromadske TV reported this from Kiev's Zhulyany Airport: "Three planes have taken off in the past five minutes. It's very likely that they are carrying cash: suitcases have been unloaded under guard from armoured vans usually used to transport cash... scheduled flights have been suspended, the airport administration says."
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frogwoman said:
I'm not sure there would be anything in organising a "rescue" operation for the Israeli state at all. There have been violent demonstrations against immigrants in Tel Aviv, (and now attacks against reform/masorti synagogues by fundamentalists) there is also a serious problem with integrating the Russian/Eastern European population from the former soviet union (as mentioned before with neo-nazis and so on). It might play well with elements of diaspora Jewry (who don't have a vote on deciding what policies Israel should adopt) and a few right-wing russian immigrants, but to be adopted by the state, nah, can't see it. Israel is overcrowded and socially divided as fuck as it is, I can't see them shelling out a few million pounds for a "rescue" operation to Ukraine

so, filing under "bollocks until proven otherwise"
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Yeah that makes a lot of sense to me - especially as I imagine a lot of Jews in Ukraine are very poor.
 
anyone got any clue as to just why our media won't report on the nazi nature of these protestors? Ilike to think I'm savvy to media motivations but this ones left me stumped. Surely neo-nazi insurgents would sell papers, get airtime, be worth their time to report.
 
DotCommunist said:
anyone got any clue as to just why our media won't report on the nazi nature of these protestors? Ilike to think I'm savvy to media motivations but this ones left me stumped. Surely neo-nazi insurgents would sell papers, get airtime, be worth their time to report.
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It's mad isn't it. Although I have heard twice on Sky News today a brief mention of far-right involvment. One saying that they were 'National Socialists', and the second time simply describing them as 'nationalist'. I've no idea why more isn't being said on this issue.
 
DotCommunist said:
anyone got any clue as to just why our media won't report on the nazi nature of these protestors? Ilike to think I'm savvy to media motivations but this ones left me stumped. Surely neo-nazi insurgents would sell papers, get airtime, be worth their time to report.
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I'm not really sure either. It's not like it's gone totally unmentioned though, there have been a couple of articles in the Guardian and a mentioned on Channel 4. All I can guess at is that once you've mentioned the fact that DC and Brussels are backing neo-Nazis then that would undermine the basis on which a lot of your journalism is predicated on.
 
SpineyNorman said:
Yeah that makes a lot of sense to me - especially as I imagine a lot of Jews in Ukraine are very poor.
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They are, yeah. No way is Israel going to do a 'rescue' mission like that, there isn't the resources, popular opinion would be dead against it, and Ukraine has something like the 5th biggest Jewish population in the world, with a lot of extremely poor people

Not the best source IMO but:

https://www.wjr.org.uk/where-we-work/ukraine/
 
The BBC are reporting that EU sanctions against Ukraine will be starting immediately. Sorry can't post the link, I'm on my phone but its on the BBC website.
 
Grim picture coming from a discussion on WS now. Good discussion, btw.

A discredited president, and protesters on the street who are not under any control of the opposition. Protesters also protesting from many different positions. Confusing picture atm, even to Ukrainians.
 
Half the country want to look east, half to look west. There appears to be little common ground. Could get very ugly. The right-nationalists who are looking west sound very scary, with talk of reviving 'Ukrainian-ness'.
 
The reason the fascist involvement isn't being reported is because this is geopolitics going on, with the west wanting to gain territory in eastern Europe and turning a blind eye/giving support to the shock troops who are doing their bidding. Why would they want to mess that up by acknowledging their shock troops are fascists. That's my opinion anyway.
 
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