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Ukraine

butchersapron said:
Rotten to the core. No politics but pro-russia, anti-US. No comrades of mine comrade.
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Bizarrely they seem to be Tudjman apologists as well if I am reading this article from their front page right :hmm:

http://bhhrg.org/bosnia/12-bosnia-herzegovina-2001-the-international.html

The new constellation of forces in Zagreb immediately set about distancing itself from the Bosnian Croats, removing both financial and moral support. Whereas the international community had criticized Tudjman for his involvement with the Herzegovinan Croats, it has consistently encouraged Racan and Mesic to take a close interest in Bosnia - but only as a single, multi-national state.
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:hmm:
 
butchersapron said:
We are. We can't stop denialists turning up to meetings. Hence a statement later. When you said rotten to the core i didn't think you mean me and my mates - i thought you just meant denialists.
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Yeah I am so sorry, completely misunderstood you, I thought that you meant that the far right 'human rights' group BHRRG had hosted the meeting, ignore me its been a long day.
 
Have I missed something or has this thread failed to dwell on the apparent fact that Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh got a paltry 0.7% of the vote?
 
elbows said:
Have I missed something or has this thread failed to dwell on the apparent fact that Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh got a paltry 0.7% of the vote?
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Conclusive evidence of fascist regime.

Tbh is doesn't matter now - in terms of this thread anyway - if they got 17% or anything less. The framework is set.
 
I suppose the next question we might get to see an answer to is whether the morale of the separatists etc will collapse. Given that Russia shows few signs of helping their cause to the extent required for 'victory' and in fact it sounds like US has confirmed that the majority of Russian troops near the border have withdrawn.
 
elbows said:
I suppose the next question we might get to see an answer to is whether the morale of the separatists etc will collapse. Given that Russia shows few signs of helping their cause to the extent required for 'victory' and in fact it sounds like US has confirmed that the majority of Russian troops near the border have withdrawn.
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Not sure - the Vostok batallion seems like it is very well organized even if some of the other separatists morale has collapsed
 
frogwoman said:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russians-invade-donetsk-350001.html
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A somewhat vulgarly propagandised version of what I've been reading about elsewhere in recent days. Which is mostly only a notch or two beyond what was already suspected prior to this weeks events. The taking over of a rebel-occupied building is of interest to me due to the number of possible explanations. A response to something, or a precursor to something else? Just one of the possibilities is that Russia are doing deals with the West and the Ukraine government behind the scenes, and may end up needing to take control of certain things in order to live up to their side of any deal. e.g. if certain factions of rebels were not acting entirely in tune with supposed Russian string-pullers, its time to replace their control of strategic locations with forces that are more reliable.
 
elbows said:
A somewhat vulgarly propagandised version of what I've been reading about elsewhere in recent days. Which is mostly only a notch or two beyond what was already suspected prior to this weeks events. The taking over of a rebel-occupied building is of interest to me due to the number of possible explanations. A response to something, or a precursor to something else? Just one of the possibilities is that Russia are doing deals with the West and the Ukraine government behind the scenes, and may end up needing to take control of certain things in order to live up to their side of any deal. e.g. if certain factions of rebels were not acting entirely in tune with supposed Russian string-pullers, its time to replace their control of strategic locations with forces that are more reliable.
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Yeah - do you have anything that I can read about it? I'm sorry for using that source but is there anything you can recommend that's more in depth?
 
The stuff I read didn't really add more depth, detail or analysis unfortunately, just approached the subject with a less shrill tone. I'd have to look back in my history to find it and as best I recall the additional detail mostly related to the specifics of food looted from the supermarket, i.e. the pretext for evicting the previous controllers of the building.

Edit - turns out it was a telegraph article. Like I said I don't know as it adds anything useful, but I suppose its worth posting if only for the following quote:

Alexander Borodai, the prime minister of the self-declared republic, said on Thursday afternoon. "There is no coup. Everything is under control."
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ines-rebels-in-crisis-after-Donetsk-coup.html
 
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As for publicly visible elements of deals between Ukraine and Russia, aside from the stuff about Russian troops withdrawing, there has been a partial payment of the gas bill:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27641419

Ukraine has paid part of its gas debt to Russia after talks between both sides and the European Union, says EU Energy Commissioner Guenther Oettinger.

Reports suggest Ukraine has paid Gazprom $786m (£469m; 576m euros) of the $3.5bn Russia says it is owed.

Russia announced negotiations would only continue once the money had arrived in Gazprom's account on Monday.
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elbows said:
I suppose the next question we might get to see an answer to is whether the morale of the separatists etc will collapse. Given that Russia shows few signs of helping their cause to the extent required for 'victory' and in fact it sounds like US has confirmed that the majority of Russian troops near the border have withdrawn.
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The longer it goes on, the smaller the chance for a peaceful settlement. I personally cannot see Ukraine staying together without a fair bit of Russian oppression in the East.
 
Interesting piece on From our own Correspondent. Lebn vi got in Odes, indeed.

Drawn by the tales of easy living, I first came to Odessa 20-odd years ago for a romantic escape, like many other tourists, to stay in its grandest crumbling hotel. But now I am back because new, uglier myths are winding themselves around Odessa, and a new ghoulish tourist attraction disfigures its heart - the burnt-out shell of the Trades Union Headquarters, its blackened Stalinist columns surrounded by heaps of now-withered flowers.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27602941
 
The amount of downright Stalinist bilge that this has brought out of the UK left is remarkable - the thing tonight at SOAS will be a feast of it.
 
looks like a 55/80mm rocket attack - explosions are about the right size, the distribution is about right, cratering is about right.

probably S-5 or S-8 types. S-13 is much too big, it would have flattened the placed. both can be fired from pretty much any platform and are in service with any country that was supplied by Soviet Union/Russia - they are low tech, good for soft targets, and reasonably accurate if the pilot knows what he's doing.
 
kebabking said:
looks like a 55/80mm rocket attack - explosions are about the right size, the distribution is about right, cratering is about right.

probably S-5 or S-8 types. S-13 is much too big, it would have flattened the placed. both can be fired from pretty much any platform and are in service with any country that was supplied by Soviet Union/Russia - they are low tech, good for soft targets, and reasonably accurate if the pilot knows what he's doing.
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So aircraft you reckon?
 
Red Storm said:
So aircraft you reckon?
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looks like it - it could be mortars, but it would have to be 4/5 mortars being controlled by someone who really knew what they were doing, and even then its at the top end of what you could achieve with a skilled crew.

caveat by saying that this is looking at the first video, the silent one that looks like a webcam. in the second video, the holes in the soil are wrong for mortars, they (depending on the fusing, but usually...) create shallow, wide 'scrapes' instead of deep, narrow holes - which are characteristic of very fast projectiles like rockets.

it could be ground fired rockets - the Red Army was obsessed by them - but they tend not be that accurate, in short they wouldn't be in a nice tight line, they'd be all over the place.
 
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