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Ukraine

Fuck me. Al Jazeera are even worse than Sky. "The Donbass Battalion prepares to save Ukraine from separatists".

Oh look, pretty girls can be 'patriots' too.

From behind her black ski mask, Maria’s bright blue eyes light up when she’s asked if she is ready to go to the front lines

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Makes me fucking sick.
 
Right. Someone please explain to me how the fuck this article makes any sense.

A day with Ukraine’s volunteer fighters
The emergence of interethnic Ukrainian patriots bodes well for the country's political future

[...]

“So this is a national liberation struggle for you and the others?” I asked.

“Da,” he replied. “We are all Ukrainian citizens, and this is our homeland. We’re not fascists, as the Russians say. We are fighting for our homeland. We’re Russians, Ukrainians, Greeks, Jews and many others.”

It occurred to me that I was in the presence of something Ukraine had never had: a Ukrainian nation whose identity and allegiance were based not on ethnicity but on patriotism. A little later I saw a soldier in a skullcap leading Ukrainians and Russians in a training exercise.

[...]

Fox then pointed to a soldier on his left: “This one is a Ukrainian Bandera” (a reference to the controversial leader of the interwar nationalist movement, Stepan Bandera). “And I’m a Russian Bandera, and that one is a Jewish Bandera.” He explicitly used the term “zhidobandera” in reference to his Jewish comrade, the preferred self-designation of the Jewish Ukrainian oligarch and Dnipropetrovsk province governor, Igor Kolomoisky.
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This world is too much for me. Is this a weird new form of antisemitic propaganda painting Jewish people as anti-Nazi Nazis fighting alongside non-Nazis who glorify Nazis, but who are not really Nazis despite all the Nazi symbols and flags? What the fuck?
 
Been thinking about the 'former IDF soldiers' on the maidan and I'm starting to wonder if it's just another example of something that's been seen across the world, especially in latin America, since at least the 60s. I know more about it in Colombia than anywhere else - over there ex-IDF mercenaries have worked as 'counter-insurgency' trainers for the narcofascist paramilitaries. Apparently Israel produces much more than its fair share of mercenaries and 'specialist trainers' (not a complete surprise I suppose, given the nature of the work the IDF do and the sheer size of it as a proportion of the population.

the quote in cynicaleconomy 's post above talks about a soldier in a skullcap leading a training exercise and that would fit too. I find the claims that this is something that's been organised by the Israeli government a bit iffy - not least because of the kinds of people who are making them - but it doesn't really have to be for the Jewish maidan fighters to represent something very different from genuine grassroots jewish support - they might just be mercenaries in it for the money. The likes of the AUC in Colombia were openly and intensely antisemitic and that didn't stop them there - one can only assume it was all about the money.

I admit this is just speculation but thought I'd put it out there - anyone else think this might be what's happening?
 
SpineyNorman said:
the quote in cynicaleconomy 's post above talks about a soldier in a skullcap leading a training exercise and that would fit too. I find the claims that this is something that's been organised by the Israeli government a bit iffy - not least because of the kinds of people who are making them - but it doesn't really have to be for the Jewish maidan fighters to represent something very different from genuine grassroots jewish support - they might just be mercenaries in it for the money.
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The lines between mercenaries and actual state support in stuff like this has been blurred for a very long time, if you read Mark Curtis' Britain's Collusion with Radical Islam he mentions countless occasions in which the MoD sent 'ex-SAS' to work for the dictator du jour. No reason to think that Israel wouldn't do the same.
 
J Ed said:
The lines between mercenaries and actual state support in stuff like this has been blurred for a very long time, if you read Mark Curtis' Britain's Collusion with Radical Islam he mentions countless occasions in which the MoD sent 'ex-SAS' to work for the dictator du jour. No reason to think that Israel wouldn't do the same.
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I agree it's a possibility but in Colombia they went with the approval of the state initially (while the US was still fairly openly supporting and training the paramilitaries) to train both regular and paramilitary forces. But the training continued even after the AUC had become a pain in the arse/threat/embarrassment (take your pick) to the Colombian state and all the evidence suggests it was done without the knowledge or approval of the Israeli state.

Point being that there doesn't necessarily have to be any kind of conspiracy on the part of the Israeli state for this to be a bit more than meets the eye.
 
SpineyNorman said:
Been thinking about the 'former IDF soldiers' on the maidan and I'm starting to wonder if it's just another example of something that's been seen across the world, especially in latin America, since at least the 60s. I know more about it in Colombia than anywhere else - over there ex-IDF mercenaries have worked as 'counter-insurgency' trainers for the narcofascist paramilitaries. Apparently Israel produces much more than its fair share of mercenaries and 'specialist trainers' (not a complete surprise I suppose, given the nature of the work the IDF do and the sheer size of it as a proportion of the population.

the quote in cynicaleconomy 's post above talks about a soldier in a skullcap leading a training exercise and that would fit too. I find the claims that this is something that's been organised by the Israeli government a bit iffy - not least because of the kinds of people who are making them - but it doesn't really have to be for the Jewish maidan fighters to represent something very different from genuine grassroots jewish support - they might just be mercenaries in it for the money. The likes of the AUC in Colombia were openly and intensely antisemitic and that didn't stop them there - one can only assume it was all about the money.

I admit this is just speculation but thought I'd put it out there - anyone else think this might be what's happening?
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that Colombian raid into Ecuador to take out the FARC leadership was pretty much orchestrated from start to finish by a zionist merc firm, most likely the same outfit has been active in Ukraine. Just as that Polish one I highlighted has been at it. Both an extension of the respective national interests.

remember the poles are also helping the ideological heris of the Bandersists who committed genocide against Poles in Ukraine. Its water under the bridge, same for the Israelis. Its the current interest that counts, not the past.
 
Israel probably turns out more combat soldiers than any others has a similar unemployment rate to us loads of ex conscripts plus those that go professional
Will be poached and israel can pick up contracts that uk gov or ex us forces cant or wont touch.
 
Aside from the Malaysian passenger plane taking up space in the news, how long are the rebels going to last in this so-called 'final battle' in Donetsk? The Ukrainian army has recently or still is attacking part of the city. I haven't been keeping up to date with this stuff. Given the pounding Slavyansk took recently, ordinary residents are going to be in for a rough time.
 
I don't trust anything coming out of Ukraine. The Ukrainian government is claiming victory, but this could just be a new phase of the conflict.
 
The situation in Ukraine seems to be taking a nose dive.
The government in Kiev has resigned!!!

Human Rights Watch is claiming that Pro Ukraine forces are violating international humanitarian law by using unguided rockets on civilians in Donetsk.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians
The four attacks took place close to the front line between insurgent and government forces. Impact craters on the ground and on buildings investigated by Human Rights Watch were characteristic of rocket attacks, not shelling. In all four cases, the angle and shape of the craters, and the fact that they were on the side of buildings facing the front line, strongly suggests that the rockets came from the direction of Ukrainian government forces or pro-Kiev armed groups. The attacks’ proximity to the front line also makes it unlikely, and in some cases impossible, that insurgent forces were responsible for the attacks. In two of the attacks, rockets hit on or near insurgent bases and checkpoints at the same time as they hit residential areas, indicating government forces were responsible.
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I guess now that there's no government, the term "government forces" is somewhat redundant but at the time they government blamed he attacks on "self organised" groups.
So who is accountable for the "anti terrorist" (read ethnic cleansing) drive now?
What happens now there's no government?
Parubiy has already drafted a Martial Law document for Donetsk and Luhansk. I can see a quick amendment being done to encompass the whole of Ukraine. Getting legislation changes passed a non existent parliament didn't stop him before either.
Grim just got grimmer.

.
 
Are you sure it's not the Kiev government bullshitting badly about the army's conduct/war crimes? It hasn't been 'self-organised' groups not belonging to the army shelling and bombing other places indiscriminately over the last few months.
 
seventh bullet said:
Are you sure it's not the Kiev government bullshitting badly about the army's conduct/war crimes? It hasn't been 'self-organised' groups not belonging to the army shelling and bombing other places indiscriminately over the last few months.
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Sure. It' s a bit rich of the Government to partion blame on any certain "self organisd group" when they're one themselves
 
What 'certain' self-organised groups? You know the difference on what has been talked about, though. It hasn't been 'self-organised' groups flying government jets and blowing up people's homes with them still inside recently. Or firing artillery into town centres.
 
seventh bullet said:
Are you sure it's not the Kiev government bullshitting badly about the army's conduct/war crimes? It hasn't been 'self-organised' groups not belonging to the army shelling and bombing other places indiscriminately over the last few months.
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They're behaving a bit like Israel aren't they?
 
frogwoman said:
They're behaving a bit like Israel aren't they?
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Not really, although it's a piss-poor attempt to deny that Kiev forces (including Kiev-equipped paramilitaries) have been and are doing anything dodgy. They're on the offensive to defeat the rebels, which won't happen definitively yet. They can drive them out of Donetsk, sure, but thousands of Russian-supported fighters crossing between the two countries will likely be a pain in Kiev's backside for some time?
 
seventh bullet said:
What 'certain' self-organised groups? You know the difference on what has been talked about, though. It hasn't been 'self-organised' groups flying government jets and blowing up people's homes with them still inside recently. Or firing artillery into town centres.
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My point is that It was only 5 months ago that Yatsenyuk, Parubiy and colleagues were on maiden coordinating protesters in hockey masks (self orgaanised group) and now, due to the tentative legitamacy of their current position as heads of government, it could be argued that the whole structure (politicians, military, national guard, other militias) is also "self organised group"
 
'The actions of our government forces are proper and lawful, so when some unfortunate person walking their dog, taking their kids shopping or watching the telly in their living room gets splatted by a mortar shell or rocket it's other forces outside of our control (but who we fund and equip in assisting the army) who are doing all the naughty, illegal war crime stuff.'
 
seventh bullet said:
'The actions of our government forces are proper and lawful, so when some unfortunate person walking their dog, taking their kids shopping or watching the telly in their living room gets splatted by a mortar shell or rocket it's other forces outside of our control (but who we fund and equip in assisting the army) who are doing all the naughty, illegal war crime stuff.'
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Seems to be the order of the day - except for Russia of course, who get sactions
 
butchersapron said:
Oh ffs. Even pocket science and the putin crew can spot this one.
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From what I've seen in this thread ...First and foremost, the so called putin crew have been calling out the hypocrisy & warmongering of the west's politicians. If Putin shows the scum up for the cunt's they are, then good on him.
Secondly, the putin crew have been calling out the western media that's taken Orwellian Telescreen manipulation to new levels.

but what ever... no worse than buchers apron and the Kerry crew
 
Not sure if I am in the Putin crew, but I do not trust pretty much anything regarding Ukraine at the moment. Time will tell what will happen. I certainly think the Western governments have no idea what they are doing over there and get their information from a combination of Ukrainian nationalists and western observers who spend most of their time with Ukrainian nationalists. They did not spot a conflict like this, for example.

Sure, I never really expected a conflict of this magnitude. However, the way in which minority Russians were treated by Ukrainian elites and now the western media had been a major issue in Ukrainian politics. We did not care enough about them apart from the odd election when our man did not do as well as he 'should' have done in a liberalising post-communist state. What I deeply object to is the idea that we are stopping Russian expansionism. The opposite is happening, Russia is trying to stop Western expansionism. By all means argue our expansionism is better for Ukrainians (many on the thread have done so), but I don't have much time for the proposition that the west has done any good in Ukraine and remain unconvinced we will do any good over there.
 
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UK to send 1,300 troops Nato exercise in Poland in show of strength
Independent. Monday 28 July 2014
More than 1,300 British troops are to take part in a major Nato exercise in Eastern Europe in a further show of strength by the Western alliance in the face of Russia's continuing “destabilisation” of Ukraine.

Speaking on a visit to Warsaw, Defence Secretary Michael Fallon, said that the UK would be sending a full battle group to take part in Exercise Black Eagle in Poland this autumn, in the largest British commitment to the region since 2008.
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Holding joint military exercises in a country bordering Russia isn't destabilising?
 
likesfish said:
Leave them be. Thats probably the one and only time Al Jazeera can do a pwhrooah thread the number of pretty girls that appear covered up apart from their eyes in any vaugely legit news story mustbe severly limited :)
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Bigoted, racist bollocks, there's only one al-Jazeera International female presenter that wears the hijab and none, I repeat none, that have ever covered their face.
 
On the 15th July, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights published a report on the human rights situation in Ukraine.

(Also, "On 23 July, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) issued a News Release calling the fighting in eastern Ukraine a ‘non-international armed conflict’ and urging all parties to comply with international humanitarian law..." So, a civil-war, designated by the body that designates them.)

It's quite long. Here are excerpts,
Casualty figures are hard to gauge reliably, the report says. However, based on the best data available, conservative estimates by the Human Rights Mission and the World Health Organisation put the number of those who have been killed ... As of 26 July, [at] at least 1,129 people ... and 3,442 wounded.
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28. ...the [Ukrainian Ministry of Health] withdrew [it's own civillian deaths] figures the same day they announced them, and have issued no further data since. In addition, the Ministry’s figures only include those dead who were delivered to morgues of medical establishments, or those wounded and who later died in hospital. In fact, many dead were buried without being taken to morgues.

29. Since 10 July, there have been at least 44 more civilian casualties... Most of these recent have been the result of intense shelling of villages, towns and cities, the so-called ‘collateral damage’ to the fighting that is taking place in and around population centres.
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A cursory look at Ukrainian news sites makes another 50 civillians since the publication, on top of this, seem plausible.
35. According to the Ukrainian government, since mid-April, 717 people have been abducted by armed groups in eastern Ukraine... 437 people were released. The whereabouts of 375 people remains unknown.
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46. ...many detainees who were held by armed groups report beatings, ill-treatment, sleep deprivation and very poor conditions while in detention, and forced labour, including digging trenches on the front lines. As an “alternative” to torture and ill-treatment, it was suggested that detainees join the ranks of those fighting for the armed groups.

52. The HRMMU has received reports of allegations of sexual violence being committed against
individuals by members of the armed groups. It has also received allegations concerning a National Guard in Kramatorsk.
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53. Members of the Ukrainian territorial battalions and the National Guard are alleged to have arbitrarily detained a number of suspected supporters of the armed groups and subjecting them to enforced disappearances.
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74. The Ukrainian security operation involves the army, the military police (National Guard), the National Security Service (SBU) and a number of volunteers’ battalions (Donbas, Azov, Aydar, Dnipro, Ukraina, etc.) The involvement of battalions of volunteers raises important questions... There are allegations of human rights violations committed by these battalions.
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79. There are disturbing reports of cases, including journalists, politicians and of people allegedly supporting the armed groups, of having been arrested by the Ukrainian forces but whose
whereabouts could not be ascertained for a long period of time or are still not known.
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