Ukraine

[Eastern-Odyssey]

the reports I read at the time suggested they were completely taking the piss, like Tony Sopranos crew run wild. All sorts of shootings and the like. Its also a central location were there were all sorts of journalists and foreign dignitaries visiting.

and they werent exactly kicked out, they peacefully complied with a request by the junta to relocate their headquarters after a gunfight in the hotel bar is all that happened. And were kindly provided with official transportation in order to do that.

Yes I don't think there was much of an argument about leaving. It's just the video I remember seeing on Vice, which seem to give it a little over dramatic spin. Actually I had completely forgot that it was due to an unrelated shooting in the bar.

 

[Casually Red]

Don't worry though Anton Shekhovtsov who spent the good part of 6 months ignoring fascism in Ukraine and instead highlighting what an authoritarian fascist Putin is, has 13 points on why he thinks the Far Right in Ukraine will not come to power http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/blog-post.html. I think he left out the most important thing, how does the government plan to disarm these groups? And if they don't win the elections what's going to be their next move?

that idiot is such a pain, he writes such utter rubbish.

far from disarming them the junta are currently arming them courtesy of the National Guard. Just think of the opportunities the British armys UDR militia afforded loyalist paramilitaries in Ireland for arms, training, intelligence, finance..everything . And compare the status and ability of the British government to enforce its writ and whats going on in ukraine.
I dont think the fascists have the objective of winning elections. I think what they want first and foremost is control of the street.
Being seen as the most aggressive and dedicated fighters for Ukraine will go a long way towards that, as will being armed by the state . It will also increase the juntas reliance on them and in turn their rank and status . And its from there real power and influence over all sorts of stuff will accrue and flow . I think Yaroshes standing in the election isnt remotely about winning it but more about becoming a household name, becoming a respectable brand who might someday be considered as national leadership material . Its more about assuming national status and serious persona than hope of electoral victory. Fascism isnt just going to go away after the elections, its just going to become more formalised, normalised and embedded.

 

[Casually Red]

Actually I had completely forgot that it was due to an unrelated shooting in the bar.

we can blame Classicdishes disinformation campaign for that, with him trying to make out it was a huge offensive by the junta against the nazis

 

[pocketscience]

I didn't endorse Taras Berezovets or even the number given I simply linked to an example of a story that offered a lower-end estimate of Right Sector membership.

Of course, I didn't for one minute think you were endorsing the guy or the number he provided. I only referred to it as it was the source of the original discussion. Just for the the record, I wasn't endorsing Yarosh's number either. I think I know why my link got picked out and micro-analysed by the usual suspects and yours not. It just so happens the source you provided turned out to be a peach of an example of what BA has been banging on about (verifying sources) and has showed him up to be a hypocrite.

By the way:
You've used Google Translate on that page and its initially hard to make out what that is meant to mean, but the page that quote comes form seems to be saying that 'smear campaigns' are not as terrible as they seem, they can be successfully fought and even turned to your advantage.

What do you think it means?

That he's probably a spin doctor for Tymochenko.

 

[pocketscience]

pocketscience ?

Add this to my above post and you should get the picture

 

[frogwoman]

The chav look?

Really?

 

[DairyQueen]

so according to Yarosh it was between 4 and 5000 back in february . Since then and the massive coverage theyve got theyve had a recuiting centre in the centre of town . I think its safe to assume they might be considerably larger now . And still growing .

Just post sources. Yarosh said he could mobilise 4,000-5,000. That could mean that he has 10,000 members of which around half will fight... it is just one dodgy source. Yarosh will have all sorts of reasons to overestimate the figure. Maybe he might have some reasons to underestimate it, but that is less likely.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

The chav look?

Really?

Have you not heard of it? It's a serious debilitating disease among British youth that causes people to dress bad, develop a bad attitude, turn to drugs and join the BNP. Those kids are all in serious need of some hard core Jeremy Kyle life coaching. Anyway I must be getting old as people don't really use the word any more, since I hit 30 I couldn't keep up with the new cool-words that the kids are using these day.

 

[CNT36]

Fucking hell.

 

[frogwoman]

Have you not heard of it? It's a serious debilitating disease among British youth that causes people to dress bad, develop a bad attitude, turn to drugs and join the BNP. Those kids are all in serious need of some hard core Jeremy Kyle life coaching. Anyway I must be getting old as people don't really use the word any more, since I hit 30 I couldn't keep up with the new cool-words that the kids are using these day.

Of course I know what it is

 

[frogwoman]

Am on phone and can't paste the link but according to an article I just read the separatists are claiming 11 soldiers shot last night. Any confirmation of this?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Have you not heard of it? It's a serious debilitating disease among British youth that causes people to dress bad, develop a bad attitude, turn to drugs and join the BNP. Those kids are all in serious need of some hard core Jeremy Kyle life coaching. Anyway I must be getting old as people don't really use the word any more, since I hit 30 I couldn't keep up with the new cool-words that the kids are using these day.

Fuck off you prick.

 

[SpineyNorman]

stupid ugly smelly proles, should be middle class and photogenic like the Ukrainian far right

 

[seventh bullet]

Have you not heard of it? It's a serious debilitating disease among British youth that causes people to dress bad, develop a bad attitude, turn to drugs and join the BNP. Those kids are all in serious need of some hard core Jeremy Kyle life coaching. Anyway I must be getting old as people don't really use the word any more, since I hit 30 I couldn't keep up with the new cool-words that the kids are using these day.

Seriously, fuck off.

 

[rekil]

Seriously, fuck off.

He should post a pic of himself first.

 

[seventh bullet]

stupid ugly smelly proles, should be middle class and photogenic like the Ukrainian far right

You can just tell the politics of a person by how they look, the way they speak etc, especially those generally horrid working class people.

 

[quiquaquo]

stupid ugly smelly proles, should be middle class and photogenic like the Ukrainian far right

Harsh, surely the good looks of this specimen are undeniable ;-)

 

[classicdish]

Unsurprisingly you are very deliberately misrepresenting what those links actually say

Classicdishes disinformation campaign

I'm not going to follow your example of spewing vast amounts of verbiage at every news story and twisting and inventing words until they fit a narrative. I'll let people read the links for themselves and make their own minds up what they think they say.

 

[J Ed]

This is a confusing piece

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...volunteer-units-kiev-russia#start-of-comments

In addition to the difficulties of coordinating such a diverse range of paramilitary groups, there has also been concern at the extreme nationalist element among those fighting. The frequent Russian claim that the Ukrainian government itself is fascist is untrue, but there are certainly far-right elements involved in the fight in the east.

Parubiy himself has an extremely dubious past, having set up the neo-fascist Social National party of Ukraine together with the current leader of far-right Svoboda, Oleh Tyahnybok, in the early 1990s. While there has been little evidence that the militias have been motivated by any kind of far-right ideology when fighting in east Ukraine, there is no doubt that radicals have been the people most willing to fight, and this has led to a number of situations which appear to be well beyond the bounds of normal military behaviour.

So there are far-right people in the East but not the West of Ukraine but when they are in the East they are motivated by different politics to when they are in the West?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pilger wades in to the Ukrainian debate:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger
No real surpise on his stance or any new info for anyone following this thread -although I did find this interesting;

You can buy MREs on the open market from any military surplus store. The US (almost uniquely among nation-states) over-produces ration packs by a factor of about 4, so are constantly selling off surplus stock within a couple of years of reaching the end of its' shelf-life.
Personally, I think they're nasty, but having seen the "delights" that are contained in standard Ukraine and Russian ration packs, I'm not really surprised that someone might supplement their vacuum-packed salo, their sweets and their crackers and tin of meat paste with an MRE.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe that's something to with them shipping 300 000 of them over there openly in march.

No, you're wrong. It must be proof that Nuland used some of the $5 billion to "feed the fash".
Or, at least, there are going to be a few fuckwits that make such an illogical connection.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who are you? The fucking Gestapo? Who are you and what do you represent?

He's someone with a less dickhead username than yours, for a start!

 

[kebabking]

...Personally, I think they're nasty, but having seen the "delights" that are contained in standard Ukraine and Russian ration packs, I'm not really surprised that someone might supplement their vacuum-packed salo, their sweets and their crackers and tin of meat paste with an MRE.

ah, the MRE - three lies for the price of one, or alternatively, Meals Rejected by Ethiopians.

as to the wider point, i'm impressed by the variety of uniforms i've seen over the last months in Ukraine - every possible type, colour, pattern, nationality and rip-off thereof. it must be bloody confusing with each and very different unit of each different ministry adopting a different pattern...

 

[ViolentPanda]

The fact that the government made zero effort to disarm right sector after the Geneva agreement yet instead started it's "anti-terrorist" offensive (using full conventional military capabilities as well as other rogue elements), speaks volumes don't you think?

Yes, but about what?
We need to bear in mind the prevalance of weapons and of military training, when talking of disarming any element of the population. To give a hoary historical example, one of the primary reasons the various militias in Weimar-era Germany retained their weapons was due to the near-ubiquity of firearms and of groups of people (across the political spectrum) trained to use them.
States don't tend put their police forces in harms' way unless there's a dividend. They generally prefer to be the ones doing the shooting, not the ones being shot at.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ah, the MRE - three lies for the price of one, or alternatively, Meals Rejected by Ethiopians.

as to the wider point, i'm impressed by the variety of uniforms i've seen over the last months in Ukraine - every possible type, colour, pattern, nationality and rip-off thereof. it must be bloody confusing with each and very different unit of each different ministry adopting a different pattern...

And/or each minister taking a bribe from a different uniform manufacturer!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I give the Ukrainian far right one thing their anti-drug, anti-alcohol, healthy living lifestyle result's in them not developing the Chav look.

Whereas you've obviously developed a dickhead classist mentality.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The chav look?

Really?

Yes, really.
There really are armpit-sniffers out there who still use that expression.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Have you not heard of it? It's a serious debilitating disease among British youth that causes people to dress bad, develop a bad attitude, turn to drugs and join the BNP. Those kids are all in serious need of some hard core Jeremy Kyle life coaching. Anyway I must be getting old as people don't really use the word any more, since I hit 30 I couldn't keep up with the new cool-words that the kids are using these day.

People don't really use the word anymore, and yet you did.
Because you're a leprous classist twat.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not going to follow your example of spewing vast amounts of verbiage at every news story and twisting and inventing words until they fit a narrative. I'll let people read the links for themselves and make their own minds up what they think they say.

And thank fuck for that!

 

[DairyQueen]

Yes, but about what?
We need to bear in mind the prevalance of weapons and of military training, when talking of disarming any element of the population. To give a hoary historical example, one of the primary reasons the various militias in Weimar-era Germany retained their weapons was due to the near-ubiquity of firearms and of groups of people (across the political spectrum) trained to use them.
States don't tend put their police forces in harms' way unless there's a dividend. They generally prefer to be the ones doing the shooting, not the ones being shot at.

I am not sure disarming is the right word here. The paramilitaries in the East look better armed and trained than perhaps even the Ukrainian military.

The broader point is that the Kyiv government has come down very hard on protestors in the East for doing the same thing the Right Sector and their allies did in the West (occupy administration buildings, kill/kidnap government officials). The duplicity is in the fact that Western Ukrainians are allowed to undertake militant actions in the face of Russian influence but their opponents are not allowed to resort to the same tactics in the face of American influence. Even the Kyiv government has acknowledged what happened in Odessa was an outrage, and that is far more clear a war crime than anything that happened under Yanukovich (whether it was the Right Sector or the government as well is a mute point - Right Sector will not be punished for it).