Ukraine

[Casually Red]

I quite liked the article. Not convinced Pilger is right (that the Russians are doomed in Ukraine), but I do think that Ukraine, in its current form, will never recover from this. I really do think the Ukrainian government have lost the plot here, I am not sure the Americans realise what they have done yet. Maybe Poroshenko will calm everything down, but turning to a 'chocolate oligarch' in a time of crisis seems... well...

Id agree that Ukraine seems to be hurtling at high speed into becoming a failed state. In fact the only people who seem to be trying to apply brakes to the situation are the Russians, with their statement theyll recognise the outcome of the nationwide elections and their calls for the federalists to postpone their polls.
Im also of the opinion the Ukrainian junta have been actively encouraged to lose the plot. Its taking coincidence way too far to accept there was no US encouragement for this military offensive, when offensive one was launched when CIA head Brennan was meeting them. And offensive 2 launched when Joe Biden was meeting them. Remember the whitehouse was warning Yanukovich thered be serious repercussions fo him if he resorted to force to quell the coup. Yet heres the tanks, the migs, helicopter gunships, howitzers, rocket artillery and neo nazi militias going in all over the place and the whitehouse are commending the junta for its restraint

heres an exchange today in the Rada that gives just a taste of what further delights this fascist freakshow in Kiev has in store. The leader of the Communist Party denounced the massacres in Odessa and Mariupol.

“In Maripoul there was a slaughter of civilians, a mass murder. The number of those killed, first of all among peaceful civilians, is being concealed. A peaceful demonstration was shot at on May 9 and it was a show murder carried out by the current regime. There was a shooting of peaceful civilians, there was no one with weapons there. When you, using armored personnel carrier guns, killed a family of three, shot [them] in their kitchen, this is what you must be held accountable for; there is blood on your hands today,

“In Mariupol [you] killed and shot down police department personnel only for refusal to comply with the criminal order to disperse protesters during the May 9 demonstration,”

“You declared seven million people living in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions as 'terrorists.' They went out yesterday , stood in lines since 6 a.m. to vote against Kiev rule, against this regime, against your policy,

Your policy resulted in Ukraine losing Crimea. Now your policy is leading to the point where seven million people of Ukraine, 30 percent of the country’s GDP, reject their future with Ukraine,

These events show that those who had another point of view were burned in a fire of inquisition at the Odessa Trade Unions House. They were burned alive! They were utterly beaten with metal rods when they tried to leave the building or jump out of windows. They were destroyed because they, Ukrainian citizens, had a different point of view,

and the acting President, junta leader Turchinovs angry response to these communist accusations of intolerance ????

He fucking heckles the speaker...announces Take your place, liar. I order you to stop your speech

and then announces that him and Svoboda are going to see to it the Communist Party is banned.

I would ask the Justice Ministry to look into this issue and if there is proof, to send the material to court and ban the Communist Party in Ukraine,” he said. “There is a lot of information and material in regard to the participation of the Communist Party’s representatives in the organization of terrorist and separatist activities,

http://rt.com/news/158744-ukraine-terrorists-civilians-killed/


Ukraine is fucked, well and truly. Its no surprise at all millions of its people simply want nothing more to do with this freakshow.

 

[Casually Red]

Yes I never trust Al Jazeera any more whether it's Egypt, Syria, Libya, Algeria etc for the past 3 years since the withdrawal from Iraq I don't trust anything they say. I already get fucked off enough with them constantly producing reports on human rights abuses in Nepal, every time a report comes out on the conditions of Nepalese labour workers dying in Qatar. Anyway Qatar wants to take over from Russia as Ukraine's gas supplier and from some trade figures I was looking at on the Qatar foreign affairs website they have a healthy trade relations as well, so it's only expected they are going to be biased. With Egypt I never quite got why they lost staff, I think they supported the military coup in the binging when it was manufactured by the Saudi's, but started to changed editorial policy after the crack down. I don't think they had much of a choice after some of their journalists were detained.

Anyway Vice President Joe Biden's son has landed a job after going through the tough interview process (irony intended), on the board of Ukraine's energy giant http://www.cnbc.com/id/101669271. No surprise then that the Ukrainian government would announce that they plan to take Gazprom to an international tribunal. A kind of hint that we now have the US government fighting are battle.

apparently the 20 odd journalists resigned before the crackdown, citing being used for blatant propaganda. Having a CIA agent as your editor in cheif will dictate your policies too, just a tad.

thanks for the Biden thing. That just brings farce to a new level. Theyre not even trying to hide what theyre at...and never have been tbh. If George Bush had done that in Iraq thered have been liberal uproar.
Russia have now told them that the IMF have given them enough money to pay some of their bills so they expect payment ASAP. And now theyre openly hostile to Russia the favoured status is gone, so theyll have to pay them in advance at full price. Otherwise the gas gets turned off at the beginning of June. Which i fully expect it will be.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Id agree that Ukraine seems to be hurtling at high speed into becoming a failed state. In fact the only people who seem to be trying to apply brakes to the situation are the Russians, with their statement theyll recognise the outcome of the nationwide elections and their calls for the federalists to postpone their polls.
Im also of the opinion the Ukrainian junta have been actively encouraged to lose the plot. Its taking coincidence way too far to accept there was no US encouragement for this military offensive, when offensive one was launched when CIA head Brennan was meeting them. And offensive 2 launched when Joe Biden was meeting them. Remember the whitehouse was warning Yanukovich thered be serious repercussions fo him if he resorted to force to quell the coup. Yet heres the tanks, the migs, helicopter gunships, howitzers, rocket artillery and neo nazi militias going in all over the place and the whitehouse are commending the junta for its restraint

heres an exchange today in the Rada that gives just a taste of what further delights this fascist freakshow in Kiev has in store. The leader of the Communist Party denounced the massacres in Odessa and Mariupol.

“In Maripoul there was a slaughter of civilians, a mass murder. The number of those killed, first of all among peaceful civilians, is being concealed. A peaceful demonstration was shot at on May 9 and it was a show murder carried out by the current regime. There was a shooting of peaceful civilians, there was no one with weapons there. When you, using armored personnel carrier guns, killed a family of three, shot [them] in their kitchen, this is what you must be held accountable for; there is blood on your hands today,

“In Mariupol [you] killed and shot down police department personnel only for refusal to comply with the criminal order to disperse protesters during the May 9 demonstration,”

“You declared seven million people living in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions as 'terrorists.' They went out yesterday , stood in lines since 6 a.m. to vote against Kiev rule, against this regime, against your policy,

Your policy resulted in Ukraine losing Crimea. Now your policy is leading to the point where seven million people of Ukraine, 30 percent of the country’s GDP, reject their future with Ukraine,

These events show that those who had another point of view were burned in a fire of inquisition at the Odessa Trade Unions House. They were burned alive! They were utterly beaten with metal rods when they tried to leave the building or jump out of windows. They were destroyed because they, Ukrainian citizens, had a different point of view,

and the acting President, junta leader Turchinovs angry response to these communist accusations of intolerance ????

He fucking heckles the speaker...announces Take your place, liar. I order you to stop your speech

and then announces that him and Svoboda are going to see to it the Communist Party is banned.

I would ask the Justice Ministry to look into this issue and if there is proof, to send the material to court and ban the Communist Party in Ukraine,” he said. “There is a lot of information and material in regard to the participation of the Communist Party’s representatives in the organization of terrorist and separatist activities,

http://rt.com/news/158744-ukraine-terrorists-civilians-killed/


Ukraine is fucked, well and truly. Its no surprise at all millions of its people simply want nothing more to do with this freakshow.

Yes I watched the little rat's video that he uploaded to Youtube, only understood a few words so handy for the exact translation. I find it funny because the little fuck is directly linked to the militant factions to the point were his taking photos of with them and interrogating prisoners. You seriously know that your in a worrying stage of Fascism when a member of government and a presidential candidate is hanging out with known fascist groups and telling other people of for not wanting to live in his fascist paradise.



Anyway just a few thoughts on Mariupol:

1) They posted flyers of their intent, hinting at the 9th of may is the date to crush Pro-Russian seperatists.
2) They open heavy machine guns and RPG's on a police station, which looks like it only included police, which seems excessive force.
3) They opened fire on civilians and despite a few tiny pictures showing some of them possibly armed these were not Ukrainian soldiers and any action carried out from them should be seen as a threat.
4) The government official statement showed not only they new of the operation, but they sanctioned the operation.
5) The public execution of a police office, not only proves that Right Sector was involved, but also proved that both the government and 2 presidential candidates are complicit in a crime against humanity.

I really wonder how long the US and EU can keep denying this fucking sham. And I kind of look forward to when the mainstream media will pick up on that execution video, as it implies the government and Right Sector in criminal action. however, I doubt they will and if they do they will probably try to credit it as fake.

 

[classicdish]

...Personally I would say sending Right Sector into Mariupol to open fire on a police station with RPG's and Heavy machine guns, injuring over a dozen people and then public hanging a police office and making it quite clear who ever supports the separatists will be next to hang, was more what the BBC would call a "escalation"...

Weird how the alleged hanging video was posted online before Mariupol happened then.
(unless you are referring to something else of course)

 

[Casually Red]

Yes I watched the little rat's video that he uploaded to Youtube, only understood a few words so handy for the exact translation. I find it funny because the little fuck is directly linked to the militant factions to the point were his taking photos of with them and interrogating prisoners. You seriously know that your in a worrying stage of Fascism when a member of government and a presidential candidate is hanging out with known fascist groups and telling other people of for not wanting to live in his fascist paradise.



Anyway just a few thoughts on Mariupol:

1) They posted flyers of their intent, hinting at the 9th of may is the date to crush Pro-Russian seperatists.
2) They open heavy machine guns and RPG's on a police station, which looks like it only included police, which seems excessive force.
3) They opened fire on civilians and despite a few tiny pictures showing some of them possibly armed these were not Ukrainian soldiers and any action carried out from them should be seen as a threat.
4) The government official statement showed not only they new of the operation, but they sanctioned the operation.
5) The public execution of a police office, not only proves that Right Sector was involved, but also proved that both the government and 2 presidential candidates are complicit in a crime against humanity.

I really wonder how long the US and EU can keep denying this fucking sham. And I kind of look forward to when the mainstream media will pick up on that execution video, as it implies the government and Right Sector in criminal action. however, I doubt they will and if they do they will probably try to credit it as fake.

it looks like they simply massacred those police officers for refusing to massacre their own people. And the junta line and the western media line is fully in tune. Seperatists and terrorists tried to storm a police station. The only people doing the storming were the fascists, and it seems they also killed people who tried to act as a human shield and protect their local police.
The EU and US are effectively in cold war mode here. Theyll deny nothing because its highly likely its themselves giving the orders in the background. They started this entire thing, the coup is their handiwork and the junta their appointed puppets. They regard this as part of the endgame on Russia and theres simply no turning back now.

 

[Casually Red]

CR - You are right the comparison between Fox and RT isn't fair. But the trouble with RT is when it's biased it undermines other work which may be important. Same as any media organ. I would still take the World Service or Aljazeera over it though.

i appreciate your point but i definitely wouldnt. In short the point im trying to make is the bias within RT is very easy to spot, it doesnt make any bones about it. However what it still does is afford numerous opportunities for the diametrically opposed to come on and challenge it. And be challenged in turn. RT is well up for a good bunfight, particularly with Cross talk. Theres also Oksana Boykos interviews , a tad more sombre, were shes putting some seriously hard questions to the western figures they simply dont get asked anywhere else. Their reaction to the mere existence of an alternative narrative is well worth the watch. Most of them just cant handle it, theyre often flabbergasted, which exposes the likes of the BBC and others for being so consistently on message.

so, while biased at times in its reportage its still balanced in the opportunities its affords to others to come on and argue otherwise, from the opposite end of the scale. Which the BBC and the likes generally dont.

its also got a lot more openly left wing slots than any other media outfit.
BBC and Al Jazeera simply arent like that. Theyre a hell of a lot more insidious. They have a respectability they simply dont deserve and use that in order to disseminate slime thats swallowed a hell of a lot easier. See my posts about Al Jazeera in particular.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Weird how the alleged hanging video was posted online before Mariupol happened then.
(unless you are referring to something else of course)

Yes sorry it's my mistake I read the upload date wrong, e.g I was including the upload date, plus I assumed it was that area because of the similar police uniform. Nonetheless, does it really fucking matter, if this video is real, a group being armed and allowed to operate under the authority of the government, who have a presidential candidate, is hanging people without a trial. Who knows it maybe an elaborate fake, but it still justifies an investigation probably by somebody not involved in the government like the Odessa fire, or sniper shootings and still qualifies as a crime against humanity.

 

[Casually Red]

classicdish - The Odessa thing is pretty dodgy. The numbers could be pretty high.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/odessa-who-is-to-blame-for-46-odessa-deaths-346817.html

They are now reporting 46 deaths (it was less before). All of those identified were from Odessa. Kyiv Post is very pro-European and pro-west, and they even write (although this sounds like an excuse to put get rid off less obedient officials in Odessa as opposed to a genuine attempt at uncovering the facts)...



The Russians put the figure much higher... and are reporting this...

the junta were originally claiming most of the dead were from Russia and Transnistria. And ive seen a string of reports were people from Odessa are claiming dozens of people have gone missing.

but anyway, ive been meaning to post this. We already have that sociopathic witch Tymoshenko openly congratulating the fascists for their handiwork after Odessa. But this video is of her in a meeting from almost a week before that. Can anyone confirm to me that what this evil bastard witch is saying is along the lines of
we have to provoke Odessa by attacking the veterans parade.. something about bloodshed ?



because if thats true what happened next would be no coincidence at all, and no spontaneous action either

 

[classicdish]

Anyway just a few thoughts on Mariupol:

1) They posted flyers of their intent, hinting at the 9th of may is the date to crush Pro-Russian seperatists.
2) They open heavy machine guns and RPG's on a police station, which looks like it only included police, which seems excessive force.
3) They opened fire on civilians and despite a few tiny pictures showing some of them possibly armed these were not Ukrainian soldiers and any action carried out from them should be seen as a threat.
4) The government official statement showed not only they new of the operation, but they sanctioned the operation.
5) The public execution of a police office, not only proves that Right Sector was involved, but also proved that both the government and 2 presidential candidates are complicit in a crime against humanity.

I'd be interested in seeing these flyers, I haven't heard of them. Bit of a weird tactic to take.

There seems to be a dispute about who was inside the police station and exactly why it was attacked. Rather than simply believe one side or another I'd prefer to see some evidence and hear the details.

You say something about Kiev forces not being Ukrainian soldiers, however Ukranian forces are reported to have included police, army, an 'omega' unit (Interior Ministry) and other interior ministry troops. Only a short while ago the Right Sector only numbered supposedly a few thousand whereas apparently the national guard is over 30,000. Parts of the Right Sector have refused to have anything to do with the new national guard and so mathematics seems to suggest that we [EDIT: can not] simply assume that all Interior Ministry troops are Right Sector. Some people make a big deal about what colour uniform people wear, with men-in-black = 'right sector' but as I understand it the Interior Ministry troops (sometimes) wear black. The national guard (if that's what they were?) in Mariupol were wearing crappy green/army style stuff. The bottom line is that there isn't a big dividing line between various Kiev forces operating in the Donesk region at the moment and all branches have been attacked and all have done some attacking. Legally there isn't any difference either as they are all operating under the same Kiev government.

(PS. See my previous post about the hanging video)

 

[classicdish]

...if this video is real, a group being armed and allowed to operate under the authority of the government, who have a presidential candidate, is hanging people without a trial...

The national guard is being armed and operating under the authority of the government. The Right Sector is an independent militia which has it's own weapons and operates under its own leadership.

I know people are claiming that the two are identical, or that the Right Sector has 'taken over' various parts of the police, military and/or interior ministry but I want to see some actual evidence, not just endless allegations.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

I'd be interested in seeing these flyers, I haven't heard of them. Bit of a weird tactic to take.

There seems to be a dispute about who was inside the police station and exactly why it was attacked. Rather than simply believe one side or another I'd prefer to see some evidence and hear the details.

You say something about Kiev forces not being Ukrainian soldiers, however Ukranian forces are reported to have included police, army, an 'omega' unit (Interior Ministry) and other interior ministry troops. Only a short while ago the Right Sector only numbered supposedly a few thousand whereas apparently the national guard is over 30,000. Parts of the Right Sector have refused to have anything to do with the new national guard and so mathematics seems to suggest that we can simply assume that all Interior Ministry troops are Right Sector. Some people make a big deal about what colour uniform people wear, with men-in-black = 'right sector' but as I understand it the Interior Ministry troops (sometimes) wear black. The national guard (if that's what they were?) in Mariupol were wearing crappy green/army style stuff. The bottom line is that there isn't a big dividing line between various Kiev forces operating in the Donesk region at the moment and all branches have been attacked and all have done some attacking. Legally there isn't any difference either as they are all operating under the same Kiev government.

(PS. See my previous post about the hanging video)

Repost from page 229

When you say "Parts of the Right Sector have refused to have anything to do with the new national guard" were do you get this information from, along with the numbers. I know me and Casually Red have speculated that Right Sector and the National Guard are one in the same, they have been also training and recruiting since the change in government. The problem is we can never accurately say how close the links are. Nonetheless, again as mentioned before earlier training video's of members of Right Sector posted 5 years ago they have RPG's, snipers, quality AK's etc and judging by the armies refusal to step in I personally believe they've always had close links to the Ukrainian army.

Nonetheless, whether the Ukraine army, or national guard are involved in these attacks Right Sector is with them. I know 3 members of Right Sector were killed in sniper battles, 3 in Odessa attack and from the video's they've posted online they were the ones responsible for the shooting outside the police station in Mariupul on the 8th-7th which was reported by the international media as the national guard.

Anyway this is Mariupul May 9th, injured Right Sector member being carried out among screaming crowds.

 

[Casually Red]

IParts of the Right Sector have refused to have anything to do with the new national guard

evidence of this please

 

[classicdish]

evidence of this please

Parts of Right Sector don't want to join national guard (March):
link

Parts of Right Sector don't want to join national guard (March):
link

another: http://firtka.if.ua/?action=show&id=49658

...and on a slightly different topic...

Police special forces kick Right Sector out of their Kiev hotel HQ (April)
link

Some lower-end Right Sector estimated membership numbers (March):
link

 

[classicdish]

Casually Red

Since you seem to be the 'go to' person for all exposés things neo-nazi

How many members have the Right Sector got?
How many members have the national guard got?
How big is the overlap?

Oh yeah, and please provide your evidence.

 

[pocketscience]

Yarosh himself said in March:

I cannot give you the exact number, as our structure and divisions are constantly growing all over Ukraine, but over 10,000 people for sure. We have certain preconditions for our recruits: patriotism and other criteria for proper behavior.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/03/21/...ctory-ukrainian-revolution-speaks-247987.html

 

[pocketscience]

Casually Red

Since you seem to be the 'go to' person for all exposés things neo-nazi

How many members have the Right Sector got?
How many members have the national guard got?
How big is the overlap?

Oh yeah, and please provide your evidence.

The fact that the government made zero effort to disarm right sector after the Geneva agreement yet instead started it's "anti-terrorist" offensive (using full conventional military capabilities as well as other rogue elements), speaks volumes don't you think?

eta: just to put that 10K into perspective: the ukrainian army has 90K active personel.
Add to that 10k the 10% of population that were eligable to vote
in 2012 the Svoboda element (up from 0.76% in 2007), proportionally the extreme right are a major force in ukraine right now.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Yes sorry it's my mistake I read the upload date wrong, e.g I was including the upload date, plus I assumed it was that area because of the similar police uniform. Nonetheless, does it really fucking matter, if this video is real,

Rigorous, evidence-based posting. Top work.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Yarosh himself said in March:

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/03/21/...ctory-ukrainian-revolution-speaks-247987.html

It must be true, then. No chance he might be trying to puff up his squalid little outfit.

 

[pocketscience]

No chance he might be trying to puff up his squalid little outfit.

it's just as likely he's been asked to play the numbers down in the hope that people like you in the west continue to support the coup.
But, I hope you're right. We'll see in the May 25th election.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Rigorous, evidence-based posting. Top work.

Yes I made a mistake on the upload date and made a poor assumption based on the uniform and the events in Mariupul on May 9th. However, my response was does'nt really matter were on when it was filmed, you have a group which seems very cushy with the government, who the media continues to paint as simple nationalist group, blatantly carrying out a crime. Who knows as I said before the video maybe just a really good fake created by Russia, or pro-Russian forces the liable excuse that with be used if should ever go viral, although I find it deeply worrying this video has been circulating online for a week and neither governments, media, or NGO's have addressed it.

 

[articul8]

Ukranian socialist solidarity campaign formed:

http://observerukraine.net/2014/05/13/british-campaign-launched-to-support-ukrainian-workers/

 

[frogwoman]

Anyone got any info on the 'Donbass battalion ' group?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Anyone got any info on the 'Donbass battalion ' group?

i'm also very interested in this... do they have a website or press-release source?

 

[butchersapron]

New AWU piece:

Against the regime in Kyiv and the junta in the East! AWU-Kyiv statement on the conflict in the Eastern regions

This is a critical situation for working people. The government treats all protesting Anti-Maidan people alike: soldiers don’t understand who they shoot at, and the ones who are being shot at don’t understand what they die for. Both sides of the condlict manipulate their “foot soldiers” with a particular cynicism, and because of this the working people fight for the ideas that do not have anything in common with their material, class interests. Ukrainian military units and other armed groups fight for the senseless ideals of national-patriotism and “unity of a nation”, while separatists fight for the creation of a new state and/or joining Russia. In all cases the aim is the borgeois national state with its bureaucrats, police, judges, prisons, capitalists and paupers.

Even now there are already dozens of victims and deaths as the consequence of struggle between those two reactionary movements. Army incompetence, on the one side, and the combatants’ depravity, on another side, increase the losses significantly.

The highest ranks of Anti-Maidan movement are generally made up of military retirees, as well as senior police officials, which are loyal to the previous regime. Therefore, the leadership of the “people’s republics” in the Eastern regions of Ukraine may indeed be styled as the junta – the dictatorship of the law enforcement and armed forces.

Owing to the constant PR from the pseudo-antifascist international community, “Right Sector” acquires the dreadful image of a powerful organization which almost rules the Ukrainian state, which is obviously not true. But we are not trying to minimize the problem of fascist movements in Ukraine. AWU repeatedly emphasized the escalation of far-right violence, aimed particularly at leftists, as early as 2012, during Yanukovych’s regime. AWU activists were also attacked. One of our comrades was almost killed by the neo-nazis who had attacked him with knives. Also, the location of this year’s May Day march had to be moved due to the threat of clashes with far-right.

Resisting the fascist movements has been one of the primary tasks of anarchist movement in Ukraine for a long time. Unlike many post-Stalinist “antifascists” in Western countries we know this problem firsthand and not from the Internet. And yet, we and our comrades managed to organize May Day anarchist marches with social, anticapitalist and antinational agenda in Kyiv, Kharkiv and Zhytomyr.

 

[classicdish]

Yarosh himself said in March

...and you take his word for it?

also, that's your answer to "How many members have the Right Sector got?"
how about:
How many members have the national guard got?
How big is the overlap?

 

[frogwoman]

Far right organizations are always the most reliable source when it comes to their own membership figures

 

[pocketscience]

...and you take his word for it?

not really

also, that's your answer to "How many members have the Right Sector got?"

No, you wanted a number so I posted a link to an interview with Yarosh who provided a number. Why the indignation? I just wanted to help.

how about:
How many members have the national guard got?
How big is the overlap?

Judging by the shambles in Kiev I doubt anyone knows the answer to those questions either. Why you're asking people on here is beyond me. But please, crack on.

 

[butchersapron]

Nick griffin just said the BNP are the coming power and reams of people are joining each week. Just trying to help.

 

[pocketscience]

Nick griffin just said the BNP are the coming power and reams of people are joining each week. Just trying to help.

Link?

 

[butchersapron]

Why would that help you here? Why would that help dig you out of the credulous hole that you've just dug for yourself?