pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Because it would also give me the chance to be a sanctamonious prick
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Nope, that's not going to get you out of it either.Because it would also give me the chance to be a sanctamonious prick
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
What the fuck are you going on about (again)?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm going about your helpful credulity. As if you didn't know.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
So you think Taras Berezovets estimate of 2000 is on the money?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I have no idea. I do know that saying that Yarosh says 10,000 - and then arguing (with no supporting evidence whatsoever) that he's probably downplaying it and then taking that figure as fact is not any serious way to come up with a figure.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
So, for the sake of balance I suggest you take up classicdish 's "helpful credulity".
Or wouldn't that fit your intimidation profiling?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Wow. Did cd do what you did? No. Intimidation profiling. Ffs.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
what does intimidation profiling mean 
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
What? provide a link to someone quoting a number of how many right sector member there are.? Yes he did
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Stealth. Maybe he's being surreptitious, for the reasons I pointed out to goldencitrone.
Pavel Gubarev, DPR-side Gubernator of Donetsk, has announced the founding of the Новороссия, New-Russia party in East Ukraine. The Donetsk People's Republic as a movement predate the current crisis by years, and were supposedly linked to the Eurasian youth movement at their inception (I do believe that the 'register' that their core ideologues are operating in has probably been swamped and diluted by actual mass positive reaction, especially following the actions of the National Guard etc. Who knows, perhaps the east will converge towards some popular Russian unity movement. Western leaders' attitudes are perfect for stoking it. Watch out for the purple banners coming out, I suppose).
(All credit to those who've researched and posted about various groups and figures already - I think I'm tending to repeat a few things. After doing a lot of reading I just find I can't be arsed to search such a big thread for link-posting. Don't mean to look like I'm ignoring it)
This is a draft translation, with no one's seal of a approval whatsoever. Original is spread about online, including youth-Eurasian site yeurasia.org.
(All credit to those who've researched and posted about various groups and figures already - I think I'm tending to repeat a few things. After doing a lot of reading I just find I can't be arsed to search such a big thread for link-posting. Don't mean to look like I'm ignoring it)
This is a draft translation, with no one's seal of a approval whatsoever. Original is spread about online, including youth-Eurasian site yeurasia.org.
Friends and associates! On behalf of the People's militia of Donbass I congratulate all of us for our first social-political victory: the holding of our referendum and the founding of the Donetsk People's Republic!
Almost 90% of voters turned out to vote in favour of their independence and freedom. As of this moment we are a newly independent state, where the laws and powers of Ukraine no longer hold any sway. Now, we stand at the very beginning of our journey. Now, we will determine ourselves the future of our young republic: our own laws, constitution and parliament; which will appoint and control our new government. We may now determine, ourselves, the structure of our People's Economy, and all of our own earnings will remain within our republic. In the near future we will begin the process of formulation of the new budget, in which we will define our social expenditure.
Meanwhile, we must define the political system of our republic. Shortly, it will be necessary to open the decision making process for the appointment of new parliamentary deputies. The people must choose their delegates to parliament, who will represent the interests of the people in the main representative body, and to monitor officials and suppress all manifestations of corruption. We must resolve ourselves not to allow our new political system to have anything to do with the previous Ukrainian, oligarchical politics. The new powers must be of the people, and answerable to the people alone.
In order to realise these principles I am announcing - in my own name - the founding of the NEW-RUSSIA party. It's headquarters will be located in Donetsk. The party leadership will fall only to those who, during this difficult time of ours, proved themselves as true patriots toward their Homeland, and established themselves as genuine fighters in the defense of their Fatherland. The founding conference of our party will be held shortly in Donetsk, where we will announce our charter and ideology, appoint the leadership and determine our strategy for party development.
The founding of the DPR constitutes the first step towards our greater liberation and towards the unification of the South-Eastern Russian lands of Ukraine in a new, independent federal state: NEW-RUSSIA. We will strive, by any means, to help our brothers in the other regions of Ukraine, where the Kievan junta holds power and represses our comrades. We call on all kindred spirits - all supporters of the United Russian World - to come to the defense of our compatriots and spare no effort for the liberation of our brothers from the yoke of the fascist junta.
Long live the Donetsk People's Republic! Long live the people of New-Russia! United, we are strong! United, we are victorious!
Pavel Gubarev
Donetsk, 14 May 2014
Almost 90% of voters turned out to vote in favour of their independence and freedom. As of this moment we are a newly independent state, where the laws and powers of Ukraine no longer hold any sway. Now, we stand at the very beginning of our journey. Now, we will determine ourselves the future of our young republic: our own laws, constitution and parliament; which will appoint and control our new government. We may now determine, ourselves, the structure of our People's Economy, and all of our own earnings will remain within our republic. In the near future we will begin the process of formulation of the new budget, in which we will define our social expenditure.
Meanwhile, we must define the political system of our republic. Shortly, it will be necessary to open the decision making process for the appointment of new parliamentary deputies. The people must choose their delegates to parliament, who will represent the interests of the people in the main representative body, and to monitor officials and suppress all manifestations of corruption. We must resolve ourselves not to allow our new political system to have anything to do with the previous Ukrainian, oligarchical politics. The new powers must be of the people, and answerable to the people alone.
In order to realise these principles I am announcing - in my own name - the founding of the NEW-RUSSIA party. It's headquarters will be located in Donetsk. The party leadership will fall only to those who, during this difficult time of ours, proved themselves as true patriots toward their Homeland, and established themselves as genuine fighters in the defense of their Fatherland. The founding conference of our party will be held shortly in Donetsk, where we will announce our charter and ideology, appoint the leadership and determine our strategy for party development.
The founding of the DPR constitutes the first step towards our greater liberation and towards the unification of the South-Eastern Russian lands of Ukraine in a new, independent federal state: NEW-RUSSIA. We will strive, by any means, to help our brothers in the other regions of Ukraine, where the Kievan junta holds power and represses our comrades. We call on all kindred spirits - all supporters of the United Russian World - to come to the defense of our compatriots and spare no effort for the liberation of our brothers from the yoke of the fascist junta.
Long live the Donetsk People's Republic! Long live the people of New-Russia! United, we are strong! United, we are victorious!
Pavel Gubarev
Donetsk, 14 May 2014
Last edited:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, i didn't mean did that. I meant did he post a figure based on such flimsy and unquestioned evidence then later post as if the figure has both been established as credible for being the lower end and suggest that the real figure is actually higher. I.e act like a credulous fool -as you did.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Does it matter how many members they have? The Right Sector look like they are in all the hotspots right now. They seem pretty influential. Whether this is propaganda is an interesting question, but we are not going to answer that through analysis of what their nutbar leader said in one interview.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
You're really surpassing your own high standards this time of fishing for an argument.
Get over yourself ffs
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
I said "It's just as likely" when replying to GC.
Do you have supporting evidence that Yarosh is larging the numbers UP?
Quote specifically where I said the 10000 figure was fact.
You linked to this quote from me:
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Just 5 minutes research shows that this Taras Berezovets that classicdish refers to is actually a a PR stooge:
http://www.johnsmithmemorialtrust.o...union/ukrainian-fellows/taras-berezovets.aspx
and today he writes on twitter:
https://twitter.com/TarasBerezovets
One of the services of the PR company he's a director of:
http://www.bertacom.com.ua/poslugi/
So please,either give classicdish a lecture too or get off this sanctimonious high horse of your's, banging on about my credulity
Last edited:
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
This is a bit of a stupid question being Right Sector is just a mixture of all the various militant Ukrainian far right groups, transformed into one organized political and militant force. Personally I'm still unsure of all the various groups involved in Right Sector and their not quite like the BNP they all have these various related groups associated with the major group. On top of that you also have this major problem which Right Sector are never going to admit their numbers as they are a militant group were low numbers could show a weakness and high numbers could mean a threat to the state. On the other hand the government is probably going to be equally cagey, especially the current one.
I would put their original pre-coup levels at maybe 3,000 between the three major groups. However, taking into account the amount of small especially youth orientated far right groups, the number of Ukraine Ultra's and increased support due to the current situation anything is possible.
Additionally most of the links you gave above are from old article dated a month, or more ago long before any military operations. Nonetheless, one thing is clear Right Sector members seem to be directly involved in military operations in the East and practically every battle, or shooting incident Right Sector is involved. On top of that Right Sector is also conducted there own military operation's independent of the Ukraine army and National Guard, apparent through the death notices they keep posting on their VK pages and the subsequent funerals of Right Sector members shown on Ukrainian TV. It just depends on whether you feel Right Sector is integrating itself into the Ukrainian Army, the National Guard has become Right Sector, or the government is full well knowingly allowing Right Sector to conduct operation with the military and national guard which are all equally as bad.
P.S as far as the government ejecting Right Sector from the hotel, which I think was mentioned in one of the article's you posted I wouldn't read to much into that. They probably had to return it to the owners, but I doubt the government was to fond of a militant group holding a key strategic location in the centre of Kiev. The last time I remember was a C4 news broadcast, which Yarosh was sitting in there with curtains drawn through fear of snipers, so I'm sure Right Sector was also happy to leave to a more discrete, secret location away from the snooping eyes and ears of Moscow and Kiev.
Last edited:
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
pocketscience ?what does intimidation profiling mean
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
Do you think you can work the same magic on this video. It's of Right Sector helping Jewish refugees to safety, on Ukrainian TV. I wonder what's next handing out girl scout cookies, helping old ladies across the street, security for Ukraine's first gay pride. Nonetheless, it really smells foul of a well funded PR campaign.
classicdish
Well-Known Member
I didn't endorse Taras Berezovets or even the number given I simply linked to an example of a story that offered a lower-end estimate of Right Sector membership.
By the way:
What do you think it means?
By the way:
You've used Google Translate on that page and its initially hard to make out what that is meant to mean, but the page that quote comes form seems to be saying that 'smear campaigns' are not as terrible as they seem, they can be successfully fought and even turned to your advantage.
What do you think it means?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
you seem to be describing the difference between the UDA and the UDR .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Any old links any old asshole is posting mean sfa
Heres their recruitment centre in the centre of Kiev . Recruits are turning up from all over the place 500km in one instance . According to their recruitment officer they can pick and choose.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
so according to Yarosh it was between 4 and 5000 back in february . Since then and the massive coverage theyve got theyve had a recuiting centre in the centre of town . I think its safe to assume they might be considerably larger now . And still growing .
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
Yes you got to love that US government propaganda, which seems to circulate selectively into the international media. I'm surprised they subbed it, but I'm assuming it's to cover their own ass and in saying that I don't think it matter only foreigners watch this stuff, most American's don't know these channels exist. I read an amusing story on RFA yesterday, of a poor foreign journalist from Boxum a California based Chinese human rights paper for spreading rumours again, which when you get to paragraph 4 turns out to be "harvested organs from living people and buried them alive" and "police had beaten a pregnant woman to death in a land dispute" now I'm never going to say China doesn't have human rights abuses, but these stories always turn out to be bullshit with no evidence and purely aimed for an American based sinophobic audience. On top of that those are some serious accusation's painting the Chinese government as inhuman monsters like the Japanese during WWII.
The way I find the US government media works is normally purely aimed at foreign language audiences. The very few articles, or video's they do translate never seem to be used by the mainstream media as they tend to go direct to government statements. I've for that reason you often find things that contradict the US official statements.
Anyway back to Ukraine I found another story on Radio Free Asia:
So much for those claims being made by the US government that Maiden never took over local administrative building like those thugs in the East. Even there own media seems to contradict the State Department statements.
Don't worry though Anton Shekhovtsov who spent the good part of 6 months ignoring fascism in Ukraine and instead highlighting what an authoritarian fascist Putin is, has 13 points on why he thinks the Far Right in Ukraine will not come to power http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/blog-post.html. I think he left out the most important thing, how does the government plan to disarm these groups? And if they don't win the elections what's going to be their next move?
Last edited:
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
well yarosh was saying 10,000 by March, when it was 5000 in february . So it seems to be growing very quickly , as one would expect with its members being lauded by the junta government and its media as heroes of Ukraine . Its now well into May and I would expect its larger than it was back in March by this stage . So taking a conservative estimate , optimistically assuming its membership growth has slowed to 50 percent of what it was in March, id say it could stand at around 20,000 .
Unsurprisingly you are very deliberately misrepresenting what those links actually say . The first one, from March, has an admission at the end that theyd be much better off having one unified army than numerous splinters . The other 2 links both make the claim that Right Sector members were intent on asserting their own command structures within the National Guard structures , retaining their private weaponry to one side , and were basically refusing to be subordinate to the people the Interior Ministry had tried to put in charge of them . But otherwise co operating fully with the National Guard structures .
this one comes from that right wing neo con cocksucker Kirchik who stormed off RT and then organised Liz Wahls stunt . He refers to right Sector continuously as a nationalist militia, which the Viet Cong and Castros MR-26-7 were as well . But what he states is
Igor Mazur, a Right Sector leader known as “Topolya,” or “Poplar” because of his 6’7’’ frame, seems to think that the battle not only hasn’t ended but has yet to begin. Right Sector, he says, is training its forces in military exercises outside Kiev. Like the late Bilyi, he fought the Russians in Chechnya as a young man in the 1990s, as well as in the separatist Georgian province of Abkhazia. He says his men would join the Ukrainian military on the condition that they be able to maintain their own unit outside the formal command structure.
the third article youve linked to in Ukrainian, again from March states, not only the same thing but that the Right Sector appear to have gotten their own way .
So thats not a refusal by any means, thats simply having their government by the balls during a crisis and stating their objectives and apparently attaining them...control of their command structures within the National Guard. The article were also written just days after Fat Al was clipped , on a week relations between Right Sector and the Interior Ministry werent exactly the best .
So despite what youve tried to misrepresent those links as, what they state clearly is Right Sector is working within the National Guard whilst at the same time ensuring its their guys who control what they get up to and nobody else . That they are standing firm and taking over its command structures rather than simply being susbsumed within it and neutralised . Which for a radical revolutionary nazi organisation like Right Sector who believe in taking power by whatever means necessary is the perfectly obvious course to follow and stick to. As these arguments seem to have ceased since March , and theres been no call from Yarosh for his members to stay clear of it, it would then appear theyve been quite successful with their entryist tactic .
So im assuming from the articles youve linked to Right Sector are not only deeply embedded within the National Guard but pretty much running the show to all practical intents and purposes . They refuse to subordinate their structures to the Interior Ministries appointees .
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
Can anyone spot the difference:
The Ukrainian far right:
The British far right:
I give the Ukrainian far right one thing their anti-drug, anti-alcohol, healthy living lifestyle result's in them not developing the Chav look.
The Ukrainian far right:
The British far right:
I give the Ukrainian far right one thing their anti-drug, anti-alcohol, healthy living lifestyle result's in them not developing the Chav look.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
the reports I read at the time suggested they were completely taking the piss, like Tony Sopranos crew run wild. All sorts of shootings and the like. Its also a central location were there were all sorts of journalists and foreign dignitaries visiting.
and they werent exactly kicked out, they peacefully complied with a request by the junta to relocate their headquarters after a gunfight in the hotel bar is all that happened. And were kindly provided with official transportation in order to do that.
Similar threads
