Ukraine

[Casually Red]

The thing is, CR likes to spend his holidays hanging about with nazis and assorted trash connected to Berliner Dynamo FC, the right kind of violent racist scumbags. And they're more than fucking welcome to him.

oh fuck off you bollix

 

[Casually Red]

No, you're wrong. It must be proof that Nuland used some of the $5 billion to "feed the fash".
Or, at least, there are going to be a few fuckwits that make such an illogical connection.

what in the name of fuck are you on about now, the yanks openly admit giving them huge amounts of this stuff

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/17/hagel-says-us-to-send-non-lethal-military-aid-to-ukraine/

fuckwits making illogical connections...righto

 

[Casually Red]

Well here's Parubiy talking to fat bloke (Mikola Volkov) at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Odessa 3 days before the attack (29.04.2014). Notice how Parubiy just greets and shakes hands with a dozen or so people then speaks to volkov for 5 minutes. They seem rather chummy.





Smoking Gun?

well Paruibys clearly not just meeting him there,at the end of the video..4 20 on you can see hes delivering military equipment...ballistic vests and possibly other stuff ...to Volkov and his men just days prior to their moving into Odessa to carry out the massacre.

And heres what seems to be Volkov reporting back to the Kiev government on his handiwork in the company of senior police, and his men who all seem to be wearing the very ballistic vests Paruiby was handing out to them just days prior to their massacre.

 

[Setantii]

Right Sector execute some unfortunate prisoner.

http://ukraine-human-rights.org/right-sector-hangs-ukrainian-citizen/

 

[Setantii]

There's another video doing the rounds of Right Sector scum slitting the throat of a policeman in his bedroom while the thugs hold his wailing wife down on the bed. I don't know this sites policy regarding posting links to Fascist snuff video's so I won't link it for the moment.

 

[pocketscience]

well Paruibys clearly not just meeting him there,at the end of the video..4 20 on you can see hes delivering military equipment...ballistic vests and possibly other stuff ...to Volkov and his men just days prior to their moving into Odessa to carry out the massacre.

And heres what seems to be Volkov reporting back to the Kiev government on his handiwork in the company of senior police, and his men who all seem to be wearing the very ballistic vests Paruiby was handing out to them just days prior to their massacre.

Just imagine that there was such a clear video of the snipers on Maidan from feb and such a video turned up with Yanukovich speaking to that very Sniper just days previous to the shootings.
Quite rightly there'd be uproar and a call from all western politicians to have Yanukovich in the Hague.
for this... nada!

 

[ViolentPanda]

That Timothy Snyder piece is disgusting.

Stuff like this:



'If you're not with us, you're with Putin and Lyndon LaRouche'. Fuck off, Snyder.

Snyder has a very "particular" view of that part of the world, pretty much encapsulated in his books.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here's a thing. The Merk still wants a long-term relationship with Russia:

http://www.thelocal.de/20140516/german-chancellor-angela-merkel-we-want-close-ties-with-russia

Can't say I'm surprised. Even outwith the fuel dependance debate, diplomatic Germany has generally sought, in it's 160+ years of existence, to keep a balanced relationship with Russia going. Military Germany, on the other hand...

 

[camouflage]

Snyder has a very "particular" view of that part of the world, pretty much encapsulated in his books.

Interesting article at the said-to-be-dodgy wsws site that talks about Shnyder a lot...

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/05/16/kiev-m16.html

A group of right-wing academics, journalists, pro-war human-rights activists, and specialists in “discourse” is gathering in Kiev this coming weekend (May 16–19). The purpose of the meeting—headed by Professor Timothy Snyder of Yale University and Leon Wieseltier, the neo-con literary editor of the New Republic—is to bestow political and moral respectability on the Ukrainian regime that came to power in February, through a putsch financed and directed by the United States and Germany.

 

[J Ed]

So according to this at least some of the union interventions were directed by an oligarch.. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...a805b6-d4b2-4f8a-96c4-75a8372b13fb_story.html

 

[Idris2002]

what in the name of fuck are you on about now, the yanks openly admit giving them huge amounts of this stuff

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/17/hagel-says-us-to-send-non-lethal-military-aid-to-ukraine/

fuckwits making illogical connections...righto

 

[treelover]

RT(yes I know) reporting R/Sector have attempted to take over a power station!

 

[DairyQueen]

RT video - looks legitimate - Kherson governor doing his best to mend ties of two disparate communities;

Those [Soviet] aggressors justified their capture not only by their desire to seize others' territory and enslave the people, but they also put forward slogans about liberating nations and people that inhabit the lands which Hitler hoped to capture,” Odarchenko told the crowd.

Painting his version of the events further, he challenged history by saying that “if you read history books, we have a number of documentaries on this, then we see that he [Hitler] first of all put forward a slogan of liberating people from the communist yoke, and liberating people from the tyrant Stalin,” Odarchenko said, sparking anger and outraged by the crowd.

Bloody hell.

 

[goldenecitrone]

RT video - looks legitimate - Kherson governor doing his best to mend ties of two disparate communities;





Bloody hell.

Is it Groundhog day?

 

[butchersapron]

It's nonsense that's been dealt with earlier on the thread - total RT misrepresentation:

Headline:

Kherson governor calls Hitler 'liberator' addressing veterans on Victory Day

Content:

Hitler posed as a liberator.

 

[SpineyNorman]

something you need to understand about urban land . Apparently on here those lumpen anti working class elements ..you know those vaccuous devoid of solidarity and basic morality cunts that make life an absolute misery for us in working class areas, that most of us in working class districts just call dirtbags ,scumbags and scrotes because we have to live beside them, drink deside them..walk home at night among them...,that others call hoodies and chavs depending upon local custom . And that Marx and Engels called lumpen proletariat..useless, anti social, devoid of solidarity, rob your house, kick your face in for nothing and stab you bastards to you and me .
yeah well..if you dare call them chavs on here you get filleted. By middle class anarchists . Theyll shout class at you, very loudly, watch yourself . Up there in your gold plated ivory tower...with your helipad, sushi bar, camomile tea and all hanging out of you like Nigella Lawson at the Queens garden party .

Class....claass ..cllllllaasss !!!

eta

the no drugs, exercise and clean living thing is about the only thing I dont disagree with the fascists on. Pioneers were big into it, Cubans are too . Fuck knows what middle class anarchists make of though . Downward jazz hands all round most likely.

If the people who took exception to his sneering weren't an unemployed pipe fitter and a supermarket worker this argument would probably be more persuasive. You also seem to be using a definition of lumpen-proletariat that bears no relation to what Marx and Engels meant by the term so I'm at a loss as to why you mentioned them.

 

[seventh bullet]

I'm a supermarket worker and I eat sushi. Not from the place I work at though, because it's shit. Proles have standards you know.

 

[DairyQueen]

It's nonsense that's been dealt with earlier on the thread - total RT misrepresentation:

Headline:

Kherson governor calls Hitler 'liberator' addressing veterans on Victory Day

Content:

Hitler posed as a liberator.

A Victory Day speech, in front of Soviet veterans in city with a large Russian minority and a large number of Russian speakers (during a time of conflict) is really the time and place to start discussing an hypothesis like that... no shame or awareness.

 

[DairyQueen]

Has this been posted up? That is Igor Girkin, leader of People's Republic of Donetsk (guy with the moustache).

 

[butchersapron]

A Victory Day speech, in front of Soviet veterans in city with a large Russian minority and a large number of Russian speakers (during a time of conflict) is really the time and place to start discussing an hypothesis like that... no shame or awareness.

Of course not, it's sheer idiocy. What does the RT misrepresentation suggest though? Idiocy or planned malice?

 

[DairyQueen]

Not sure this has been posted up... likely just a bit of rhetoric from the Hungarian president.

http://news.yahoo.com/orban-renews-autonomy-call-ethnic-hungarians-ukraine-113513393.html

"Ukraine can be neither stable, nor democratic if it does not give its minorities, including Hungarians, their due," Orban said on public television late on Friday. "That is, dual (Hungarian) citizenship, collective rights and autonomy."

Many Hungarians today view the 1920 Treaty of Trianon as a national tragedy because it took away two-thirds of the country's territory and left millions of ethnic Hungarians living in what are now Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine and Serbia.

http://www.jobbik.com/jobbik_new_ukrainian_government_chauvinistic_and_illegitimate

Hate these types of maps, as there it is kind of far-right to start counting ethnicities in small regions... but it is quite interesting

 

[ViolentPanda]

If the people who took exception to his sneering weren't an unemployed pipe fitter and a supermarket worker this argument would probably be more persuasive. You also seem to be using a definition of lumpen-proletariat that bears no relation to what Marx and Engels meant by the term so I'm at a loss as to why you mentioned them.

The old tactic of "argument from authority", perhaps?
Except that, as we've both remarked, M & E never wrote about the lumpen-proletariat in those terms.

 

[ibilly99]

Panorama just on now doing a special on Ukraine.

 

[classicdish]

Ukraine Investigator Sees Chloroform Behind Odessa Deaths

 

[treelover]

Panorama just on now doing a special on Ukraine.

Yes, Panorama just now, was entitled 'Behind the Balaclavas', but only covered the Pro Russian nationalists in Ukraine, nothing about the masked Right Sector, etc,
they also appeared to describe the Odessa massacre as part of the general level of violence, nothing about who perpetrated it.

 

[ibilly99]

Yes, Panorama just now, was entitled 'Behind the Balaclavas', but only covered the Pro Russian nationalists in Ukraine, nothing about the masked Right Sector, etc,
they also appeared to describe the Odessa massacre as part of the general level of violence, nothing about who perpetrated it.

Yes - it was higher on mood and scarey music than much context or background but captured the sinister mood of when states begin to fail very well IMHO.

 

[Voynich]

The region around Kramatorsk and Slavyansk seems to be turning into a genuine warzone. General infrastructure and the occasional house now seem to be being caught by government mortars. The 'collateral damage' is going to get even more awful, I'd suppose.

Volunteer militia that are semi-approved do appear to be working with the National Guard. Particularly ascendant are the "Donbass" battalion, which was announced months ago with "Dniepr" and a couple of others as pro-Kiev eastern partisans. Turns out, these guys were probably the little Black Men all along, and they're actively recruiting.

It was quite obvious from the Russian web, as seventh bullet called it, who these volunteer groups were recruiting from. Now Yarosh has been explicit about Pravy sector forming part of the basis of Donbass battalion, and encouraging expansion into new anti-federalist units. He's said so directly, and refers to large-scale coordination, in a post on pravy sektor's own site on the 18th (pravyysektor_info/news/dmytro-yarosh-vzyav-uchast-u-natsionalnyh-debatah/).

Video of the aftermath of the incident involving the shelling of the Mariupol police station, and shooting of several civillians, shows the National Guard as an horrifically unpredictable shower of shit, but also as working with clearly informal paramilitaries.
This is a very long bit of footage. Later from 25 minutes on, armed men who are clearly not National Guard join in the storming (spectators point out their gold armbands). They take a prisoner themselves and beat him, from 29 minutes. Civilians run from the burning stormed building.


While the storm is going on through the courtyard, this video shows people trying to get people out of the burning station. At 5:50, National Guardists run out from their corner up the street to open fire on an ambulance...


The whole sorry thing shows what a nightmare this could end up being. Coverage is shocking.

Speaking of the Russian-web again, anecdotal obviously, but I speak with a couple of western Ukrainians, and flicking through VK and Facebook, it's apparent that Pravy sector are such a phenomenon among young, educated, ostensible-progressive Maidan supporters. There is nothing obscure about them whatsoever. It's paradoxical - they've simultaneously become a vague popular idea and attractor for mutant pro-European ethnic ultranationalism, and a more tightly defined, actual card-carrying political organisation (the aspect that doesn't seem very big). But a shitty VK poll I saw this week put Yarosh's ranking really very low. But Lyashko's - and his Radical party - very high, among presidential candidates.


A story which appeared on itar-tass this afternoon (which hasn't made the English language ticker yet, I don't think), is that a National Guard unit is threatening to interfere indiscriminately with traffic from their roadblock (still in the Kramatorsk region, the centre of the fighting), if they aren't paid in the next three days. They claim to have no supplies and about a fifth of their wages.
Meanwhile, the Ministry of Internal Affairs is still claiming that state payments including pensions and public sector wages will be halted in some of Donetsk region.

 

[frogwoman]

Fuck

 

[classicdish]

...It was quite obvious from the Russian web, as seventh bullet called it, who these volunteer groups were recruiting from. Now Yarosh has been explicit about Pravy sector forming part of the basis of Donbass battalion, and encouraging expansion into new anti-federalist units. He's said so directly, and refers to large-scale coordination, in a post on pravy sektor's own site on the 18th (pravyysektor_info/news/dmytro-yarosh-vzyav-uchast-u-natsionalnyh-debatah/)...

Re. the Donbass battalion, this interview in the Kiev Post (which iirc is pro-Kiev) has an interview with their commander and a look round their training camp.

"Despite the army patches, these fighters are not affiliated with the army, Yeriomen says. And despite comments from Dmitry Yarosh, leader of the nationalist militant organization Right Sector, they aren’t affiliated with any far-right groups, he explains."

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...defend-ukraine-defeat-separatists-347764.html

 

[classicdish]

This article by Kim Sengupta for The Independent distinguishes between the Dnipr battalion and the Donbass battalion.

The Dnipr Volunteer Battalion is funded by billionaire Ihor Kolomoysky, a Swiss resident. Some of its members also owe adherence to the Right Sector, an ultra-nationalist group, which has been accused by the separatist leadership of carrying out assassinations on behalf of the Kiev administration. It is doubtful if the Right Sector really are these super-efficient killers. But some of them are virulently anti-semitic. One wonders how that fits with their patron’s Jewish faith and Ukrainian–Israeli citizenship. To add to the confusion, a separate group – the Donbas Volunteer Battalion – which also dresses in black, has been in action. It claims to be against big business and the oligarchs...

He points at the Dnipr Battalion as being involved in Mariupol on May 9th:

The armed men had arrived in two lorries and a dumper truck. They jumped out and launched themselves on the demonstrators. One wound himself into a frenzy and began pistol whipping a man who offered no resistance as blood ran down his face. We were made to lie face down as the men in black uniforms fired into the ground, a metre away, so close to themselves that they were in the danger from bullets ricocheting off the concrete. The gunmen carrying out the attack in Mariupol were from the Dnipr volunteer battalion, one of the private armies which had sprung up in the “Wild East” of Ukraine. A few days later they returned to the city for one of the bloodiest days in the current strife, in which up to 20 people were killed.

However the same reporter 3 days earlier said this, which is either sloppy research/reporting or reflects some of the confusion (and/or propaganda) about who is doing what:

There may also be problems from the other side, especially a private force supposedly linked to another oligarch, Igor Kolomoisky. Many of the attacks in Mariupol were carried out by these "Men in Black", the Donbass Battalion. I had witnessed meting out unprovoked beatings to demonstrators, while residents accuse them of indiscriminate shooting.