Ukraine

[pocketscience]

Because "nazis" etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Odessa police (or various elements within it) ended up cooperating with both sets of extremists that day because they didn't want to take sides / get hurt / were bribed even? For example at one point letting (extremist) pro-russians attack the Maiden marchers, later on they let (extremist) Right Sector attack the building. And in both cases the less extreme people on both sides being the real victims - killed by gunshots in the initial stage and then trapped in the building at the later stage. The police also released prisoners at various different stages after the attacks (and allegedly before as well).

Why? The police don't get hurt at all. Maybe some even get paid? At any rate they avoid having to take any real action at least until it is far too late.
The Right Sector get to ramp up violence in the country meaning they get stronger, because that is their method for gaining political power.
The extreme pro-russian side also see support for their position increase either in a 'support of regions for federalism' sense or even in 'will drag Russia in' sense.

Who loses out? The hapless victims in the wrong place at the wrong time and anyone in the centre politically and/or who is hoping to de-escalate things and find a peaceful political solution.

I agree to all that. But to suggest the picture of the of the pregnant woman is a hoax is stretching it a bit far.

ETA: Let me rephrase - the 2nd vid don't really suggest the fat block is mates with the old bill. It suggests he's a member of the armed group in control at the crime scene (see the paramilitaries behing him - my guess Pravvy Sector). The old bill look powerless.

 

[frogwoman]

I think we shouldn't get drawn into asking whether atrocity photos are staged tbh, it's kind of irrelevant and there is enough real stuff going on to fuel hatred on both sides, after Mariupol yesterday more bloodbaths seem inevitable, there are conspiracy theories going on around all sides which is very similar to the Balkans

 

[frogwoman]

Like asking whether atrocities'really happened' or not is the kind of thing that happened in the Balkans in the 1990s tbh we need to be very very careful with this kind of stuff (not a criticism of you classic dish)

 

[classicdish]

Have you seen the photo in question? It was released with all the others hours after the fire was put out.

Yes I have.

Besides, there's enough other irrefutable evidence to to provoke outrage or are you suggesting it was all staged?

Have I suggested it was "all staged"?
You can see what issues have raised about CR's claims in my previous posts. No need to repeat everything.

 

[pocketscience]

I think we shouldn't get drawn into asking whether atrocity photos are staged tbh, it's kind of irrelevant and there is enough real stuff going on to fuel hatred on both sides, after Mariupol yesterday more bloodbaths seem inevitable, there are conspiracy theories going on around all sides which is very similar to the Balkans

While I agree, there's also a danger that we end up not beig able to discuss anything (as all sides appear to be subjective at the moment).
e.g I've been going through a lot of stuff around the TU building fire today. While there appears to be some really damning evidence of the fat bloke being directly connected to Parubiy, it's hard or nigh on impossible to verify the sources.

 

[classicdish]

I have seen people claiming that in fact 150 people were burnt to death in Odessa (apparently in the basement) and then their remains 'disappeared'.
Today an RT stringer (ie someone who a lot of people believe) is claiming 100 people were shot in Mariupol yesterday.

The truth is already bad enough without indulging a load of invented bullshit, which means I want to see actual decent evidence, believable witnesses, coherent analysis - not a load of horseshit.

 

[frogwoman]

While I agree, there's also a danger that we end up not beig able to discuss anything (as all sides appear to be subjective at the moment).
e.g I've been going through a lot of stuff around the TU building fire today. While there appears to be some really damning evidence of the fat bloke being directly connected to Parubiy, it's hard or nigh on impossible to verify the sources.

Oh yeah I wasn't saying that we should not discuss it its just that I was thinking of Kosovo where the Serb government claimed that some of the massacres were staged, there's a risk that we end up repeating things like that rather than treating everything with scepticism. The videos of Mariupol I saw yesterday showed some horrific stuff.

 

[pocketscience]

Yes I have.
Have I suggested it was "all staged"?
You can see what issues have raised about CR's claims in my previous posts. No need to repeat everything.

Sorry, meant to quote goldencitrone.
My original question to you was more rhetorical. GCs comment wasn't necessary really.

 

[frogwoman]

I have seen people claiming that in fact 150 people were burnt to death in Odessa (apparently in the basement) and then their remains 'disappeared'.
Today an RT stringer (ie someone who a lot of people believe) is claiming 100 people were shot in Mariupol yesterday.

The truth is already bad enough without indulging a load of invented bullshit, which means I want to see actual decent evidence, believable witnesses, coherent analysis - not a load of horseshit.

Yeah, exactly

 

[pocketscience]

That is incoherent (maybe very badly translated), innaccurate (describing events) and passes several assertions off as facts (for example how does anyone know who was on the other end of the phone, if anyone at all?).

Well here's Parubiy talking to fat bloke (Mikola Volkov) at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Odessa 3 days before the attack (29.04.2014). Notice how Parubiy just greets and shakes hands with a dozen or so people then speaks to volkov for 5 minutes. They seem rather chummy.





Smoking Gun?

 

[classicdish]

Another 'for example'...

Apparently these guys were stopped today with 100,000 ballots that had already been stamped "YES" for independence of Donetsk (alongside guns etc).

Of course straight away you've got to ask if you actually believe this or think it might be a government / Right Sector / CIA fake to discredit tomorrow's scheduled poll.

I'm keeping an open mind at the moment - either is plausible theory, but I want to see more / better evidence.

 

[pocketscience]

Another 'for example'...

Apparently these guys were stopped today with 100,000 ballots that had already been stamped "YES" for independence of Donetsk (alongside guns etc).

Of course straight away you've got to ask if you actually believe this or think it might be a government / Right Sector / CIA fake to discredit tomorrow's scheduled poll.

I'm keeping an open mind at the moment - either is plausible theory, but I want to see more / better evidence.

Well I suppose that one's certainly easier staged than the ones I posted and I'm sure it'll get a lot more airing in the western msm. Not saying it aint true mind.
Also notable how fat bloke hasn't been seen face down on a road side with a bag over his head and cable ties around his wrists.
Timoschenko actually thanked him and his mates for doing it (allegedly ):

 

[pocketscience]

I'll see your rigged ballot papers and raise you a Pravvy Sector lynch mob (could also be staged - although I doubt it)
WARNING - very graphic!!!
http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=56b3cfa8c2bd

 

[DairyQueen]

Timoschenko actually thanked him and his mates for doing it (allegedly ):

Timoschenko is a pretty face but useless (an oligarch who has a limited popularity among part of the Ukrainian bourgeois). This was posted a while ago, but worth reposting. I found it hilarious...

"Her people always bring a bust of her head into negotiations, so that she can watch on," said one European who spent time in negotiations with the various political forces around the protest late last year. "Frankly, it's a bit creepy, like you're dealing with a cult."

The fact she is praising the deaths in Odessa is terrifying, it really does show how far-right Ukrainian political thinking is becoming. If they want to kill Russians can they do it with America, why do the rest of us have to support a lunatic?

 

[J Ed]

Lithuania is banning fairy tales that feature gay couples http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/05/0...lled-harmful-and-banned-under-propaganda-law/

Will this get the sort of coverage that stories about Russian state homophobia gets or are gay rights only important to the EU when they can be weaponised?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The Jewish community, together with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews (IFCJ), has prepared a fleet of 70 buses, fueled and ready to go, “if, God forbid, we have to evacuate” the community’s children and any adults who want to leave, Wolf told the Post.

There are a number of evacuation plans, ranging from relocating within the city to sending the community’s children to Kishinev, two-and-a-half hours away in neighboring Moldova, he added.

Chabad, however subsequently backtracked, with a spokesman stating on chabad.odessa.ua that “in connection with reports on the planned evacuation of the Jewish community of Odessa: No such plans exist.”

Speaking with the Post, Michael Savin of the Russian Jewish Congress explained that the Russian media had exaggerated the Post’s report and claimed that a mass evacuation of the city’s Jews was imminent.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/J...s-disputes-report-of-Odessa-evacuation-351603

 

[goldenecitrone]

Lithuania is banning fairy tales that feature gay couples http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/05/0...lled-harmful-and-banned-under-propaganda-law/

Will this get the sort of coverage that stories about Russian state homophobia gets or are gay rights only important to the EU when they can be weaponised?

Which fairy tales have gay couples in them?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So is the Maidan movement "more a pogrom than a revolution" as Putin has described it, and what -- or whom -- should Ukraine's Jewish community fear most? Despite the substantial presence of right wing nationalists on the Maidan during the revolution, many in Ukraine's Jewish community resent being used by Putin in his propaganda war.

On March 5, 21 leaders of Ukraine's Jewish community signed an open letter to Putin excoriating the Russian president for using Ukraine's Jewish community to bash the interim government -- and insisting that the real threat to Ukraine's Jews emanated from Russia: "We know that the political opposition consists of various groups, including some that are nationalistic. But even the most marginal of them do not demonstrate anti-Semitism or other forms of xenophobia. And we certainly know that our very few nationalists are well-controlled by civil society and the new Ukrainian government -- which is more than can be said for the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services."

This letter to Putin brought forth an important point: namely, that much of the real anti-Semitism directed at Ukrainian Jews is actually coming from Russia. As David Fishman, a professor at the Jewish Theological Seminary and director of Project Judaica (JTS's program in the former Soviet Union), explained: "When we look at what is going on the ground in Eastern Ukraine, we are seeing the revival of language of Russian imperial ideology from 100 years ago, which is both very nationalistic and very anti-Semitic, as well as anti-Ukrainian."

Echoing what he wrote in an earlier article, Fishman noted that there has been a shift in how the Kremlin is using Jews in Ukraine. "Having failed to convince world public opinion that the new Ukrainian regime is anti-Semitic, we have recently had news programs on Russian state television asserting that leading Ukrainian political figures such as Tymoshenko and Yatseniuk are actually Jews," he continued. "Pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine and the Russian far-right inside Russia proper say that frequently, but it is the Russian government that sent such anti-Semitic extremists into Ukraine."

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/05/07/why_jews_and_ukrainians_have_become_unlikely_allies

 

[tony.c]

Which fairy tales have gay couples in them?

Click on the link.

 

[DairyQueen]

Johnny Canuck3
This might sound a bit cold, and I say this with full understanding of the history of anti-semitism in the region that still lingers on, but this is

a) a minority that, in the last census, numbered just 67,000 (there are much more Poles, Belorussians, and Hungarians). I like hearing from all sorts of minorities, which is why foreign policy annoys me in not giving column inches to either the Romani or Gagauz community representatives (both of which are presumably similarly highly vulnerable minorities), and more importantly
b) is it not enough that the Russians and Ukrainians are fighting with one another (regardless of who is more/less anti-semitic)?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Johnny Canuck3
This might sound a bit cold, and I say this with full understanding of the history of anti-semitism in the region that still lingers on, but this is

a) a minority that, in the last census, numbered just 67,000 (there are much more Poles, Belorussians, and Hungarians). I like hearing from all sorts of minorities, which is why foreign policy annoys me in not giving column inches to either the Romani or Gagauz community representatives (both of which are presumably similarly highly vulnerable minorities), and more importantly
b) is it not enough that the Russians and Ukrainians are fighting with one another (regardless of who is more/less anti-semitic)?

But the sides themselves are highlighting the jewish minority.

The present turmoil in Ukraine has a variety of facets. Still, for me, an ex-Soviet Jew (I was born in Kiev and spent my childhood in Kiev and my youth in Moscow) there is one aspect of the conflict between Moscow and Kiev that is especially striking, albeit one that is also being absolutely ignored. Indicating the birth of a new political phenomenon in both Kiev and Moscow is an exceptional fondness for Jews, despite recent anti-Semitic leaflets which appeared in Donetsk, Ukraine.

To start with, the signs of Russian Judophilia abound in Russian President Vladimir Putin, who, despite political turmoil, found time for a long and cordial conversation with the Russian chief rabbi; Kremlin-affiliated mass media proclaimed that Russia took over Crimea to save all ethnicities, including Jews, from Nazi-type Ukrainian nationalists.
Zavtra, the influential Russian nationalist newspaper that often publishes implicitly anti-Semitic articles, published an extensive interview with a Russian Israeli who praised the Kremlin’s recent actions.

The interview led to extremely positive responses from Zavtra readers, most of whom are hardly Judophiles.

..........

Kiev seems to be competing with Moscow in demonstrating its love for Jews. It has been asserted that Ukraine was always a hospitable place for Jews, and there was even a rumor that a Ukrainian Jew was to run for president in the May election. This competition in expressing Judophilia is surreal and even amusing in light of the fact that in the not-so-distant past the situation was entirely different.

As my born-in-Kiev father testifies, in the late 1949s/early 1950s Kiev and Moscow competed in expressing anti-Semitic sentiment during the so-called fight against “cosmopolitanism.”

Later, as I remember well, to be a Jew in the USSR was hardly a pleasurable experience, creating problems for those who wanted both a good education and employment.
In this anti-Semitic competition, Ukraine definitely led, and it was not surprising that two of my relatives, both born in Ukraine, moved to Georgia and Kazakhstan, respectively, where grassroots anti-Semitism did not exist and employment opportunities were better. Why then has there been such a dramatic change in behavior? The reasons, of course, are manifold.
Still, one of the most important is that Kiev and Moscow both desire to use the proverbial “Jewish question” in their jousting with each other, to recruit foreign opinion to their side.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-...in-Ukraine-and-the-new-Jewish-question-351466

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Eastern-Odyssey I'm a bit wary of calling the Kiev regime a 'fascist state' it seems to me they can't control large parts of the territory, while fascists are certainly involved it seems to me that its almost more reminiscent of tahe governments taking part in certain African civil wars ie very brutal but unstable, heavily dominated by the military and completely unable to control large parts of the territory, with the military/militias playing a heavy part. I could be completely wrong here but the Kiev governments actions seem to me to be more a sign of weakness rather than strength, with them making statements along the lines of them being 'helpless' to control separatists etc.

I could be wrong here but that's the impression that I get.

Well I have to be honest here it's a little hard to know what the current Ukraine government is, as currently we don't really know who in control of the government. Plus at this moment it's a little hazey to know what the fuck is going on in the Rada as you have so many different factions with different ideology, which all seem to have united in this supposed Russian invasion fear. Actually nobody seems to addressed were those 200+ seats have gone that are normally appointed to the Party of Regions, or Ukraine Communist Party in the Rada which are their to address the voice of the East. The Ukraine Communist Party said unknown persons were standing in for them when the votes for the new president was cast and well whether it's through fear of attack, arrest, or the outbreak of violence in the East I find it hard to believe any of those elected 200+ politicians are attending the government. So big question being all these laws seem to be passed with a big government turn out, so who's filling their places in the Rada?

I personally wouldn't link this to "African politics" this is very much a European thing, if anything I would call the current government Fascist-sympathizers, Nazi-sympathizers, or more so Fascist/Nazi-appeasers, think of it as all the assholes who either turned a blind eye or helped Hitler's rise to power in the early 20s. However, the current Ukrainian government is not far of the dictionary defernition of fascism it's only really the idea of "democratic elections" and the supposed "Russian threat" that allows it to not be classed as "authoritarian". It's a shame the Ukrainian press don't seem to have a Fritz Gerlich to tell it how it is. Nonetheless, who is control of the Kiev government? one thing I'm somewhat torn on. On the one hand the Kiev government seems nothing more than talking heads appeasing the far right militant's, or outright following their orders and on the other hand they seem to be attempting to crack down on these far right militant groups.

One thing is clear Right Sector has lot of power in Ukraine, somewhat a scary amount of power. It was clear during Maiden that soon as the protests turned violent Right Sector was calling the shots. The same seems to be the case since the new government came to power, these guy's mean business and they somewhat don't care who knows it, in a sense they flaunt it for the purposes of intimidation and provocation. Somebody in the forum earlier made the comment that these VK pages are created by kids, I have a slightly different opinion, being some of the pages off Right Sector officers are open about military operation - the first time I've ever heard of a military operation becoming public knowledge on a social network of the government your calling a threat. These guys know those pages are being monitored intensively by the FSB, by the pro Russian separatists and probably even the Ukraine government. For this reason I think these guys are trying to send that very message to all parties involved (including the Ukraine government) that we mean business. Remember it all started with their most public figure Sasha White, around April the same time the government wanted to disarm these groups (I think April 10th), he get shot twice in what clearly a spook style hit, which I think no doubt traces back to the government.

I also said a while back what was clear from Maiden is these guys have links to the Ukraine army and the Ukraine Secret Service. How close those links are it's impossible to say, but being a lot of the older guys are ex-Red Army and the younger guys more than likely originally trained in Ukraine army before joining and the strength of nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, I would say those links are strong and attributed to their success during Maiden. Nonetheless, following the death of Sasha White these guy have been integrated more and more into the Ukrainian army, which in my view means the Ukraine government doesn't have the capability to disarm them, or silence them but instead opted for appeasing them by attempting to integrate them into the system.

However, since the fire in Odessa and the popping up of the "black men" it's become clear that Right Sector either now controls, or has a lot of influence over both the police, army and secret service. Plus you have to Imagen that the army is somewhat split, so some of these guys have probably replaced pro-Russian officers. Also I would not pay much attention to the images of tanks and soldiers moving into the Eastern cities. Nobody sends in tank battalions to take out a few separatists hiding out in a few buildings, only in the situation of all out war are tanks any use in urban combat. What is happening is sniper battles and gun battles between members of Right Sector and the pro-Russians search for Sergiy Chapligin and Sergiy Chumak two Right Sector officers in Goggle with VK after their names and you will see posts on their pages of recent deaths and gun battles. What seems like has happened over the past week is Right Sector has not only taken over the traditional job of Ukraine special forces, but Right Sector has gained control of the army.

Now if things carry on the way they are going Dmytro Yarosh will not need to win the Ukraine elections as Right Sector will control all of Ukraine's domestic and international security, meaning they are in a unique position to not only control the government, but also take power by force with ease. So any I would call them fascist-appeasers bordering on fascism as currently they been appeasing the fascist elements in the state, that as a result now control all the important state organizations which are created to maintain authority.

 

[pocketscience]

Eastern-Odyssey I'm a bit wary of calling the Kiev regime a 'fascist state' it seems to me they can't control large parts of the territory, while fascists are certainly involved it seems to me that its almost more reminiscent of tahe governments taking part in certain African civil wars ie very brutal but unstable, heavily dominated by the military and completely unable to control large parts of the territory, with the military/militias playing a heavy part. I could be completely wrong here but the Kiev governments actions seem to me to be more a sign of weakness rather than strength, with them making statements along the lines of them being 'helpless' to control separatists etc.

I could be wrong here but that's the impression that I get.

Can we call them fascists once they've gained control of large parts of the territory and enforced "stability"?
Because with the asymmetrical nature of this conflict and the systematic and barbaric way they're going about their business, surely it won't take long.
From what I can see the apparatus has been set up and we're now witnessing them executing their "final solution".

 

[pocketscience]

Fucking hell! Eastern-Odyssey , we just co-inhabited a parallel universe

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Being it's Eurovision and their is next to zero chance of Ukraine's and Russia's entries helping to bring back that Russian-Ukrainian brotherly love this weekend, I thought I would instead post good old ageing Russian hippy Ю́рий Юлиа́нович to remind those Ukrainians "Don't Shoot" and you were all born in the "USSR".

 

[DairyQueen]

Well I have to be honest here it's a little hard to know what the current Ukraine government is, as currently we don't really know who in control of the government. Plus at this moment it's a little hazey to know what the fuck is going on in the Rada as you have so many different factions with different ideology, which all seem to have united in this supposed Russian invasion fear. Actually nobody seems to addressed were those 200+ seats have gone that are normally appointed to the Party of Regions, or Ukraine Communist Party in the Rada which are their to address the voice of the East. The Ukraine Communist Party said unknown persons were standing in for them when the votes for the new president was cast and well whether it's through fear of attack, arrest, or the outbreak of violence in the East I find it hard to believe any of those elected 200+ politicians are attending the government. So big question being all these laws seem to be passed with a big government turn out, so who's filling their places in the Rada?

I personally wouldn't link this to "African politics" this is very much a European thing, if anything I would call the current government Fascist-sympathizers, Nazi-sympathizers, or more so Fascist/Nazi-appeasers, think of it as all the assholes who either turned a blind eye or helped Hitler's rise to power in the early 20s. However, the current Ukrainian government is not far of the dictionary defernition of fascism it's only really the idea of "democratic elections" and the supposed "Russian threat" that allows it to not be classed as "authoritarian". It's a shame the Ukrainian press don't seem to have a Fritz Gerlich to tell it how it is. Nonetheless, who is control of the Kiev government? one thing I'm somewhat torn on. On the one hand the Kiev government seems nothing more than talking heads appeasing the far right militant's, or outright following their orders and on the other hand they seem to be attempting to crack down on these far right militant groups.

One thing is clear Right Sector has lot of power in Ukraine, somewhat a scary amount of power. It was clear during Maiden that soon as the protests turned violent Right Sector was calling the shots. The same seems to be the case since the new government came to power, these guy's mean business and they somewhat don't care who knows it, in a sense they flaunt it for the purposes of intimidation and provocation. Somebody in the forum earlier made the comment that these VK pages are created by kids, I have a slightly different opinion, being some of the pages off Right Sector officers are open about military operation - the first time I've ever heard of a military operation becoming public knowledge on a social network of the government your calling a threat. These guys know those pages are being monitored intensively by the FSB, by the pro Russian separatists and probably even the Ukraine government. For this reason I think these guys are trying to send that very message to all parties involved (including the Ukraine government) that we mean business. Remember it all started with their most public figure Sasha White, around April the same time the government wanted to disarm these groups (I think April 10th), he get shot twice in what clearly a spook style hit, which I think no doubt traces back to the government.

I also said a while back what was clear from Maiden is these guys have links to the Ukraine army and the Ukraine Secret Service. How close those links are it's impossible to say, but being a lot of the older guys are ex-Red Army and the younger guys more than likely originally trained in Ukraine army before joining and the strength of nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, I would say those links are strong and attributed to their success during Maiden. Nonetheless, following the death of Sasha White these guy have been integrated more and more into the Ukrainian army, which in my view means the Ukraine government doesn't have the capability to disarm them, or silence them but instead opted for appeasing them by attempting to integrate them into the system.

However, since the fire in Odessa and the popping up of the "black men" it's become clear that Right Sector either now controls, or has a lot of influence over both the police, army and secret service. Plus you have to Imagen that the army is somewhat split, so some of these guys have probably replaced pro-Russian officers. Also I would not pay much attention to the images of tanks and soldiers moving into the Eastern cities. Nobody sends in tank battalions to take out a few separatists hiding out in a few buildings, only in the situation of all out war are tanks any use in urban combat. What is happening is sniper battles and gun battles between members of Right Sector and the pro-Russians search for Sergiy Chapligin and Sergiy Chumak two Right Sector officers in Goggle with VK after their names and you will see posts on their pages of recent deaths and gun battles. What seems like has happened over the past week is Right Sector has not only taken over the traditional job of Ukraine special forces, but Right Sector has gained control of the army.

Now if things carry on the way they are going Dmytro Yarosh will not need to win the Ukraine elections as Right Sector will control all of Ukraine's domestic and international security, meaning they are in a unique position to not only control the government, but also take power by force with ease. So any I would call them fascist-appeasers bordering on fascism as currently they been appeasing the fascist elements in the state, that as a result now control all the important state organizations which are created to maintain authority.

I agree that this is a European thing, the problem here is that the minority in question are Russians.

I think you might be connecting too many dots at the end of that; that Right Sector controls the government. It looks to me that they are basically a unit of the Ukrainian military. At the end of the day, it will be the authority that receives IMF money that calls the shots. I just find it implausible that the IMF would hand over something in the region of 30-40 billion to a group like Right Sector (they seem a little bit stupid and certainly not able to run an economy). Power is likely with the oligarchs. It would be a problem if they become right-wing radicals. If Tymoshenko was openly praising the deaths in Odessa, that would be remarkable. She was controlling Ukraine's gas supplies and was happy to deals with the Russians.

For me, the bigger problem is the fact that the Ukrainian government and oligarchs (and the west it has to be said) seem totally desensitized to the idea vilifying and killing the 'Ukrainian Russian' minority. If that has happened, e.g. sending in a far-right paramilitary to burn the TU or just doing it themselves, it does seem like the Russian minority will, at best, have no representation in parliament. In these terms, my guess would be that the Ukrainian government is probably fascist.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

I agree that this is a European thing, the problem here is that the minority in question are Russians.

I think you might be connecting too many dots at the end of that; that Right Sector controls the government. It looks to me that they are basically a unit of the Ukrainian military. At the end of the day, it will be the authority that receives IMF money that calls the shots. I just find it implausible that the IMF would hand over something in the region of 30-40 billion to a group like Right Sector (they seem a little bit stupid and certainly not able to run an economy). Power is likely with the oligarchs. It would be a problem if they become right-wing radicals. If Tymoshenko was openly praising the deaths in Odessa, that would be remarkable. She was controlling Ukraine's gas supplies and was happy to deals with the Russians.

For me, the bigger problem is the fact that the Ukrainian government and oligarchs (and the west it has to be said) seem totally desensitized to the idea vilifying and killing the 'Ukrainian Russian' minority. If that has happened, e.g. sending in a far-right paramilitary to burn the TU or just doing it themselves, it does seem like the Russian minority will, at best, have no representation in parliament. In these terms, my guess would be that the Ukrainian government is probably fascist.

Well I wouldn't underestimate Right Sector as just being a unit of the Ukrainian army these guys were a heavily armed, well equipped, well trained fighting force before the coup. I dread to think what their states is now being they've been recruiting and training since. Plus these new "black men" units as I've mentioned before are kitted out with newer AK's and body armour unlike before and currently seem to be carrying out all the operations in the East.



As for the IMF, personally I don't think they give a fuck who they lend to, as long as they align themselves with the US http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/map/lending/. I think the IMF is more concerned about the money they earn from loans and less the ideology of the government. Ukraine maybe a little different being the amount of money involved, but the same again I think currently Right Sector's just playing the game, like all other parties involved allowing itself to integrate into the security establishment and taking the democratic elections path. Currently they would probably be happy for another party to win the elections one of the Oligarchs, because at the moment they are gaining popular support from operations in the East and slowly gain seats in government after the elections, but most importantly austerity is going to make whoever takes over the government hugely unpopular. On top of that who ever wins the election will have to either appease Right Sector, or crack down on them, but if they choose to crack down on them you have to ask whether they will take power by force as they really would have nothing to loose.

 

[frogwoman]

Johnny Canuck3
This might sound a bit cold, and I say this with full understanding of the history of anti-semitism in the region that still lingers on, but this is

a) a minority that, in the last census, numbered just 67,000 (there are much more Poles, Belorussians, and Hungarians). I like hearing from all sorts of minorities, which is why foreign policy annoys me in not giving column inches to either the Romani or Gagauz community representatives (both of which are presumably similarly highly vulnerable minorities), and more importantly
b) is it not enough that the Russians and Ukrainians are fighting with one another (regardless of who is more/less anti-semitic)?

Also we have heard very little about Romanians in the region. Everyone forgets Romania but don't forget that there are thousands of Romanians living in Bukovina in western Ukraine which historically belonged to the country.

I suspect that there is so much emphasis on Jewish people and their situation (although I have not seen that much tbh) because of the fact both sides are crying fascist at each other. Which doesn't really help anyone tbh.

 

[frogwoman]

Are there that many gagauz living in Ukraine BTW? The main population is in Moldova. They are historically quite pro Russian, they came to Moldova because of persecution in Turkey and Bulgaria. I wasn't aware there was a substantial population in Ukraine but maybe I was wrong. I am much more familiar with the Moldovan situation.

Gagauzia came very close to war at the same time as the transnistrian war by the way.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

This is the video I was looking for to post earlier instead of the one above. Despite most of the video being kids fighting each other - who are probably now in their early to mid-20s - Its a good example of some of their gear they had available 5 years ago. RPG's, sniper rifles, top of the range AK's etc these guys not only have a good financial backer, but they also have connection in the state just to be able to continue operating.